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Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

by SnowLeopard on Nov 14, 2007 5:30 PM PST Comment 39 comments

NYN close to signing Yorvit Torreabla.

The plan is to pair him up with Ramon Castro, to replace the previously unreplacable Paul "Heart, Soul, and Godamned Guts of a Hero" Lo Duca.

I take a morbid fascination with Yorvit's career, because of my fixation on the question, if only Sabes has made him the starter during the 2004-05 season. Maybe Sabes can go for a repeat performance, and trade Misch, Sanchez, and Wilson for Ron Belliard, so I can develop a similar fascination with Fransden's future adventures.

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This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Comments

Great!

Bengie Molina will get another season working with the kids and provide some clutch hitting.

by wilriv21 on Nov 14, 2007 5:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

I'm fine with Bengie. I am not so fine with Pierzynski, Matheney, Benitez, Herges, Morris, Worrell, and all the money that's been sent their way, and could have gone towards signing a corner infielder who could hit, if Sabes had simply penciled in Torrealba C (and Nathan CL) for the 2005 opening day.

by SnowLeopard on Nov 14, 2007 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Um, wouldn't Herges, Morris and Worrell been Giants regardless of whether Torrealba had been our catcher in 2004?

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 14, 2007 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Make Torrealba the catcher, you don't trade for Pierzynski. So, if we still had that one guy, and Sabes and Alou have confidence in him as a closer (big if), we don't sign Worrell to close, and Herges wouldn't have been closer. And, we don't need to sign Morris to start, cuz we have, you know, the guy Grant was waiting for and that other guy. A little too neat and perfect, maybe. But dammit sometimes it's supposed to simply work out. It would be nice if, just once, we brought up a position player from the minors and it worked out, and we didn't need to shovel money and pitching prospects to get other team's guys. A hologram of Princess Leah says, "Kevin and Nate - you're the rebellion's last hope." Anyway - when Santiago left us, I was all like, OK, cool, Yorvit's gonna get the job now. When the big disaster went down, I was all like "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?" And checking Yorvit's progress on other teams regularly ....

by SnowLeopard on Nov 14, 2007 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

I heard Yorvit is going to get about 3 yrs 15 million dollars. What a ridiculous contract for a player that hit .216 on the road this past season. My Giant memories of Yorvit are dominated by that bad throw he made that cost us a key game against the Padres in 2004, and getting pancaked by Pudge in the 2003 playoffs, allowing Pudge to score and the runner behind him.

BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 14, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Yorvit is going to get about 3 yrs 15 million dollars

This is monopoly money. Bet ARod gets monopoly crazy money.

by wilriv21 on Nov 14, 2007 6:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

That's a lot of money for a catcher who has never been a starter for a full season. I think that if Yorvit can stay healthy, he can at least come close to being worth the money.

And I'm not sure ANY high-priced free agent is truly worth the money anymore.

If Yorvit's shoulder heals enough for him to throw as he once did, he could easily be one of the best defensive catchers in the league.

Hitting-wise, I have no idea why pitchers throw him fastballs in the zone once they get ahead of him. He can hit the fastball -- but he's not very good on curve balls.

by sharksrog on Nov 14, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

> a player that hit .216 on the road
> this past season.

Yorvit's career line is .251/.313/.391. Baseball Prospectus gives him a translated line (based on nuetralizing year-by-year park effects) of .246/.310/.390. The MLB-wide aggregate line for all catchers in 07 was .255/.321/.393. So, at the plate, compared with an "average catcher", per every 100 AB, two singles are replaced by a double for Yorvit. Big whoop.

Add to that some great defense (recent shoulder/throwing problems notwithstanding), the fact that 05-07 were his peak (age 26-28) years, and the fact that his total MLB salary so far has averaged out to ~$600K/yr, and, yeah, I'll take it. Sure beats the alternatives we've paid through the nose for.

> 3 yrs 15 million dollars.

That is crazy, though.

> My Giant memories of Yorvit are dominated by
> that bad throw he made that cost us a key game
> against the Padres in 2004, and getting pancaked
> by Pudge in the 2003 playoffs, allowing Pudge
> to score and the runner behind him.

Ah the Brian Sabean method of player evaluation - did the guy (Jose Cruz Jr, Joe Nathan, Dustin Mohr, Cody Ransom) fuck up big in the offseason or the last few games of the regular season - then OFF WITH HIM.

by SnowLeopard on Nov 15, 2007 12:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

You really think that salary is crazy? As you point out, Torrealba is basically an average catcher with the bat, and he has a good defensive rep. When the free-agent market is paying $5 million or whatever per marginal win, you could make the case that that contract is low.

Or, look: it's a little less than what Bengie Molina is getting. Using their career numbers, Molina contributes about 3 runs more than Yorvit over the course of a season (120 games for catchers). Since Yorvit is much faster and more mobile, he almost certainly makes those runs back on the bases and behind the plate.

by Evan on Nov 15, 2007 8:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

People thought A.J. Pierzynski was a poor defensive catcher in 2004, but his one error and seven passed balls look pretty good in comparison to the eight errors and 16 passed balls charged to Bengie Molina last season.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Personally, I think they're both pretty bad, but it's almost impossible to know, because the bulk of what catchers contribute to team defense is unmeasurable, or at least unmeasured.

Here's a good (though kind of technical) post about measuring catcher defense by a Reds blogger. It's just a start, of course. For what it's worth, he has Torrealba as a little above average, Molina and Pierzynski as a little below.

by Evan on Nov 15, 2007 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

actually, the Mets have said he was signed along with Ramon Castro to play half the games. The Mets will be paying 9 million dollars at the catching position between the two of them. I'll take Bengie and Eliezer Alfonzo.

BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

But Worrell was on the team in 2003. He was the closer in 2003. We traded Nathan in the off-season between 2003 and 2004. Therefore, we did not get Worrell because of the Pierzynski trade.

And Herges was also on the team in 2003, before the Pierzynski trade. He became closer because of the Pierzynski trade (and because Worrell went to Philly in 2004), but he would have been a Giant regardless.

And Morris was signed before the 2006 season. Liriano (if that is what you are intimating) didn't come up until midway through 2006 so I don't see any correlation there.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 14, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Ok. Good points. I was riffing rather than spending as much time on baseballreference as I could have. :)

Nonetheless, the central point still stands - we could have saved a lot of money had Sabes just made Torrealba starting catcher in the 04-05 offseason, and that money could have gone towards an 100 RBI guy to bat behind Bonds.

by SnowLeopard on Nov 15, 2007 12:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

And, that, I agree with.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 15, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Me too. And when the Giants signed Mike Matheny to catch in 2005, they essentially signed a more experienced, weaker hitting, Yorvit. A team should want its two catchers to be complementary (which is at least one thing the Giants had with the good-hit, no field, lefty-hitting Pierzynski and the so-so-hit, good field, righty-hitting Torrealba).

Incidentally, the 16 passed balls Bengie Molina had last season are five more than Yorvit has in his entire career. And Bengie is a former Gold Glover.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

your stats totally ignore what is probably the most important part of a catcher's game, which is calling pitches and working with the pitcher. Somehow I think Giants' pitchers liked throwing to Mike Matheny alot more than they liked throwing to AJ Pierzynski and Yorvit Torrealba. I admire the stats knowledge of alot of the posters on this board, but intangibles is something that is totally forgotten around here.

BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

I completely agree with your first sentence. But if you're going to but a lot of stock in intangibles, you need to recognize that by definition we don't have any idea what the effects of intangibles are. For all we know, maybe pitchers hate Pierzynski so much that they get fired up by throwing to that SOB, and it actually causes them to focus and perform better. Who knows?

by Evan on Nov 15, 2007 8:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Evan, I personally think that catchers CAN make a difference in how a pitcher pitches -- with pitch selection and general handling of the pitcher. But this has never been proven.

For instance, Mike Matheny was considered to be one of the best catchers to throw to. But in his five seasons prior to joining the Gianta, his catchers' ERA was just slightly higher than that of his reserve catchers during that time.

Mark thinks that people who understand stats don't understand intangibles. He apparently doesn't realize that a VP of the company I worked for and I were trying to analyze how team chemistry could be applied to the work place over 30 years ago.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Catcher's ERA is a decent tool, but even that doesn't begin to show the difference among them. I get Evan's point about hating AJ might make them better pitchers, but if you're talking about a young pitching staff, I don't care what the ERA is, you want young pitchers throwing to a catcher who cares about them and knows what's best for their development like a Mike Matheny. If the ERA is better when AJ catches, it's most probably a fluke.

BRING ME ANDRUW JONES!!!

by rxmeister on Nov 16, 2007 5:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Catcher's ERA is nothing but flukes. There are far too many variables for it to mean anything.

Catchers are so different from players at all the other positions. They spend a lot less time on the field, they get injured more, they develop late, they seem to be especially prone to inconsistency and fluke years and sample-size weirdness, and the single most important contribution they make to a team (handling pitchers) is basically unknowable and unmeasurable.

It's just too hard to figure out how valuable they are. So I would treat them as more-or-less replacable parts. Don't spend money or trade capital on the likes of Yorvit or AJ or Matheny or Molina or Kendall or etc. If you take a flyer in the draft and happen to come up with a good catcher (Russell Martin, 17th round! Jorge Posada, 24th round!), that's great. If not, just sign two or three of the best backups or minor-league free agents you can find, and hope for the best. And pinch-hit for them liberally.

by Evan on Nov 16, 2007 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

I agree with everything you say until you get to your conclusion. To me if everything is equal, you simply place the most importance on what catcher is the best for your pitching staff. And that difference gets magnified when you have a young pitching staff. There's a reason that major league pitchers love a guy like Matheny, and can't stand a guy like AJ. I think you spend extra and get yourself a catcher that the pitchers like and have alot of confidence in when they're pitching. I sure know the Giants felt that way when they dumped AJ and signed Mike, and now we see the Mets agree, as they have gotten rid of Paul LoDuca and replaced him with more of a class act in Yorvit Torrealba. (Steve Kline's opinion not withstanding)

BRING ME ANDRUW JONES!!!

by rxmeister on Nov 16, 2007 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

> It's just too hard to figure out how
> valuable they are. So I would treat
> them as more-or-less replacable parts.
> Don't spend money or trade capital on
> the likes of Yorvit or AJ or Matheny
> or Molina or Kendall or etc.

Well put - I agree 100%. Which is why, when you have a young, cost-controlled catcher with a good defensive rep and who pitchers seem fine with and who is OK at the plate, like the Giants did in Torrealba at the time that Santiago left, it's probably a good idea to give the guy the starting job, and devote your free-agent signing and trade resources on improving other positions.

by SnowLeopard on Nov 16, 2007 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

I always thought it would make sense to have a catcher who's a great student of the game (whatever that means). Someone like Santiago or Matheny, who's been in the majors a long time and knows opposing hitter's tendencies. This is especially true when young pitchers are involved. With someone like Jason Schmidt, who already had his game plan lined up, a veteran catcher wouldn't necessarily be so important.

So I'd think if you have a young staff, have a veteran catcher with a young backup. If you have a more veteran staff, a younger catcher is fine with a veteran behind him.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Nov 16, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Interesting, isn't it, how differently we see things than Brian Sabean? I have never considered myself to be a part of the "lunatic fringe," but now I'm wondering.

by sharksrog on Nov 16, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

Obviously if that trade was not made the Giants would be a better team which means a lower draft position which translates into no Timme. Maybe itll be a blessing in disguise if Timme ends up being the best pitcher on the planet and single handedly leads us to the world series. Don't forget the 07 and 08 drafts that may save this franchise since the team was so bad! Just trying to make myself feel better. haha. It's been a depressing month and a half. Can someone please win already!

by krazybalr on Nov 15, 2007 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Great!

The intermediate-term future looks good for the Giants. Last season they signed Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona. This year they drafted and signed six of the top 51 overall picks. Next year they have the #5 overall pick.

But the rest of this decade surely looks horrid, and the beginning of next may start out a little slowly, as well.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I think history has shown that, with very little margin for error, I like polls.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 1:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I say yay for Tor... Torrea... For Yorvit! He always seemed like a good dude, and I was hopeful he could be the starting catcher for the Giants. So best of luck to the guy.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Nov 15, 2007 9:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

Yorvit is my favorite catcher in all of baseball. He's not the best, but he is my favorite.

I love his defense and the way he works with his pitchers. Just how good history will prove him to be we'll know more about in three or four years. But I think there is little doubt that had the Giants given Yorvit more of a chance and instead worked on improving other positions, they likely would have been a better team from 2004 through 2007.

I will sacrifice that for having a high enough draft pick to sign Tim Lincecum, but it is hard to say precisely how far Tim would have fallen. Many scouts were afraid to take a chance on a little guy with a motion they didn't understand. Most preferred to take the "safe" route.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

Yorvit is my favorite catcher as well. That is my favorite catcher to get plunked by Steve Kline when he makes a stupid comment about how hard Kline throws.

BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I would like to see Steve throwing hard for another team.

by sharksrog on Nov 15, 2007 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

Yes, I agree it's hard to know how far Timmy would have fallen. But one thing I will venture to say is...

I think the Giants would have been a MUCH better team had they not made the Pierzynski trade. It's incredible contemplating the disastrous effects of that one single move. Nathan, of course, became a fantastic closer. The Giants haven't had anyone even remotely close to him since. Not only that, but the Giants spent more than 20million dollars on that one guy who used to smirk when he gave up homeruns. I forget his name. Please don't remind me. Liriano and/or Bonser could have been traded for an actual middle of the lineup hitter. The 20 million for Smirkey McDidmyjob could have gone towards something nice. And...AH!!!!!!!! I can not contemplate it any more!

Okay, maybe a little more, my biggest disappointment stemming from recent Sabean moves involves thinking about Wilson, Accardo and Nathan in the 7th, 8th and 9th.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 15, 2007 10:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

Well, if you think Sabean makes terrible moves, giving him even more money to play with is certainly not a sign that they're going to be a better ballclub. He was given a two year deal, but make no mistake about it, he's in his last year if the Giants don't start to make progress.

BRING ME ANDRUW JONES!!!

by rxmeister on Nov 16, 2007 5:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I like your thinking there, Mark. I thought the Giants were stuck with Brian for two years, but it is good to know you believe it will be only (assuming he doesn't improve the team, which he will have a very hard time doing).

I will say this, however. The Giants could improve their record next season even without improving their team. I truly believe they were a bit better team than their record showed in 2007.

by sharksrog on Nov 16, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I think the Giants would have been a much better team if they had jettisoned Brian Sabean along with Dusty Baker after the 2002 season. If anything, it's conceivable that they got rid of the wrong guy -- or at least replaced him with the wrong man.

by sharksrog on Nov 16, 2007 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

Well, it depends on who would have replaced Sabean because if they replaced him with, say, Ned Colletti, then I doubt the Giants are much better.

Anyways, so yeah, then there's Mike Matheny's salary. That could have gone towards something better.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

I think one of Brian's weaknesses is that he becomes too enamored with mediocre-to-good veterans. He would often do much better to save the money on replacement-level players (or in the case of Yorvit Torrealba, better than replacement-level) and spend it on a star or superstar.

I think Brian undervalues OBP and overvalues experience, particularly experienced mediocrity.

by sharksrog on Nov 17, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mets Close to Signing Yorvit

> spend it on a star or superstar.

They tried to do that last offseason, and Sabes couldn't even do that right. :(

by SnowLeopard on Nov 18, 2007 7:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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