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No'Dunn for Giants

Excuse my lame attempt at creating a pun.

I'm not sure if this has been posted in a comment already, but the Reds picked up Dunn's $13 million option today.

Thoughts?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Why would anyone have expected anything different?
In plans for Dunn were just pipe dreams with no foundation in reality.

by giantsrainman on Oct 31, 2007 10:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Anyone want to take this?
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Oct 31, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
so uh as to the second sentence, your syntax understand not me well by very.

Since new manager Dusty Baker doesn't like Base-Cloggers, and whereas Adam Dunn is one of the biggest artery cloggers ever, a conflict in style may arise.

They would have been dumb not to exercise it.

However, remember, they are the Reds: they do dumb things.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 31, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Yeah, another failure to proof read on my part.  I ment to start that second sentance with "Any" not "In".  That said you got my point.  I don't see how you or anyone else could really expect the Reds or Dusty Baker to just let Dunn go for nothing.  Neither of them are this dumb and frankly one would have to be pretty dumb oneself to think they might be.

by giantsrainman on Oct 31, 2007 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Dusty Baker is a terrible manager and has the baseball control skills of a 3 year old on crack.

Castanelli and Krivsky are 'tarded and would totally do this to make a run at bonds or any number of the free agents.  

I'm not saying it was a large chance, but it had been mentioned that they might decline the option.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 31, 2007 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Dusty was the best and most sucessful manager in SF Giants History and nobody that runs a major league team is as dump as you suggest those that run the Reds are.  The Reds just letting Dunn go had no chance of happening and it is thinking it did that is actually dumb.

by giantsrainman on Oct 31, 2007 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Okay then keith law is dumb.  sweet.

also, Dusty had playing for him two of the most awesomest players ever in Jeff Kent and Barry Bonds.

He effing killed Rob Nen and left el fatso in for too long.  His tenure with the giants was strained at best and absoulutely wretched at the worst.  The fact that he kept his job so long was simply due to the awesomeness of Barry Bonds.

saying that dusty was the best manager in Giants history is an atrocity and a crime against baseball and against our team.  Dusty Baker was a fucktard that ruined countless pitchers.  Any idiots that hired that talentless windbag deserve whatever hellish tailspin he sends them into.

good luck to Homer Bailey.  I feel bad for the kid.

Anyone that trades for Royce Clayton, Gary Majewski and Bill Bray is what you would call "dumb"

krivsky has continually failed to trade Griffey, who could have brought back quite a bit and routinely does nothing to improve his team.

Reds management is probably worse than ours.  They're a little bit better farm system-wise, but come on.  

sure, this decision was an easy one, but the team has been known to do dumb things before.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 1, 2007 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Does Griffey want to be traded?
Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Nov 1, 2007 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slo
Keith Law is dumb. All of those "insiders" are just throwing shit at the wall and hoping some of it sticks.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 1, 2007 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: keith law dumb
-1
Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 1, 2007 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: keith law dumb

Ah... concise and convincing argument. I change my stance completely.  
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 1, 2007 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have
any more pearls of wisdom you can bestow upon me? Like perhaps... -3 or 7x9= 63.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 1, 2007 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
it's not an argument jackass, I just disagree.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 1, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
Wow. Jackass? Just hoping for a little insight from that brilliant mind of yours. No need to get testy.  Jeez must have caught you on a bad day.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 1, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
your argument was soooooooooooooo convincing in the other direction that I'm sure there could be no doubt.

sorry, you're probably not a jackass. I shouldn't have made internet insults as it's not really my thing.

I like his chats. I like his insight. I don't think he's dumb. I think he's pretty cool.

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 1, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
Okay. That is fine. I think that when somebody says things like "Tim Lincecum is undoubtedly headed for the bullpen as soon as he gets to the majors" and " Delmon Young and Justin Upton are good bets to hit 700 HR" that he is probably just making wild assumptions and backing them up with his "baseball expertise" which is perhaps a bit of a stretch.

Now I am not saying that I am more of an expert than   Law. I most assuredly am not. I am saying that the majority of what these "experts" say is conjecture   because they not held accountable for being wrong.          

I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 1, 2007 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
Hey! You're a dick!

Keith Law may not be the most informed guy, but he reported a rumor that the reds were still debating whether or not to exercise Dunn's option.  

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 2, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Do you have
Hey! Here is a belated "FUCK YOU!"
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Nov 7, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And anyone who trades away
Brandon Phillips is also dumb then? Conversely, the GM who managed to pick up Brandon Phillips is a genius?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's wiser to look at the entirety of a GMs record?

How do you knoe that Griffey could have brought back quite a bit? Griffey is no longer the player he was. Throw in his age and well known injury issues.

Name me one GM in MLB who has not done something dumb.

by rfloh on Nov 1, 2007 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: And anyone who trades away
oh, no i'm not saying GMs don't do dumb things.  They all do, it's part of the unpredictability of the game.  Hell, Sabean made some trades that turned out awesome at one point in time.  

All I'm saying is Law brought up a rumor and i'm sure the Reds may have went over the decision a few times; it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Also, griffey had tons of trade potential most every offseason and right around the trade deadline.  The reds could bring back two good prospects or more for the guy.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 2, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: And anyone who trades away
also, trading for brandon phillips was a fluke move that worked out.  He had shown nothing in Cleveland for 4 years (2 of which he was hurt) and has a career minors OPS of .750 including a couple repeated levels.  Look the kid turned out to have quit a bit of pop in his bat and so far looks like a solid average second baseman right now.  Trading for all of Royce Clayton's career 77 OPS+ along with two middling relievers for two solid players in Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez.  That was a dumb move. a very dumb move.  He's made others.

tony womack for two average prospects
Jeff Conine for two more
Brendan Harriss traded away

Wayne Krivsky is a bad GM.  He has done very few things right.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 2, 2007 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot
There are two parts to the manager job (and surely other ways of looking at it, too): one is the 3 hours per day that is the game, and the other is the 21 hours per day that's not the game.  Dusty was very good at the 21 hours per day that's not the game-- setting the atmosphere for the team, respecting his players, treating them like adults, knowing them as individuals, speaking Spanish, etc.  But the 3 hours per day that is the game?  HORRENDOUS on the order of two-week old corpse stuffed with rotting fish and limberger cheese, deep fried in cow shit, then sprinkled in tabasco. (No reason; I just put tabasco on everything.)  He had zero strategic ability whatsoever. (See 'Three Nights in August,' which should have been subtitled: 'LaRussa Is A Self-Important Blowhard Who Nevertheless Consistently Beats Dusty Without Dusty Ever Knowing How or Even Realizing that There IS Strategy Involved in This Game.')

It is an interesting question (to me) of how many wins each category is worth. I believe that the 21-hrs-that's-not-the-game IS an important part of the job during the season.  It is probably worth several wins to set the right atmosphere and make your guys feel the way they need to feel to do their best. (I think that atmosphere is different for different groups; I don't think it's just a matter of throwing out the rulebook.) In-game strategy is absolutely worth a few wins, too, maybe more than a few.

But when you get to the post-season????  It's (nearly) ALL strategy, baby.  By that time, your players are in synch, they've been succeeding as a team all year, the atmosphere is whatever it is, etc.  

Sending Dusty into the post-season is like going on 'Jeopardy' never having heard of Shakespeare.  Sure, you'll nail the stuff you're good at (state capitals, food questions), but you KNOW there's going to be some important Shakespeare stuff sooner or later, and you are going to flat-out blow it. Guaranteed.

He will never, ever, ever, ever, not once, not a single time, ever, ever win a World Series.  He's the Shakespeareless guy on 'Jeopardy'-- he can get on the show, but never be champion.  Not only is he bad at strategy in the game, he doesn't even freaking recognize it.

With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 1, 2007 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Post more often, Mayor!
The subtitle alone was worth the price of admission. Terrific!
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 1, 2007 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot

I agree with you up to a point.  How much strategy was required by the Red Sox to beat the tar out of the Rockies?  Actually, how much MANAGER input was required?

Not a whole hell of a lot.

Maybe you should just use Dusty Baker to get to the playoffs, then send him on a junket and let whomever is the bench coach take over for a few weeks.

by zenbitz on Nov 1, 2007 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot
If one is going to hire Dusty at all, then that's definitely the way to plan around his flaws. (And yes, of course, Red Sox over Rockies this year didn't take MUCH thinking, but (a) one example is called an anecdote and doesn't refute a point, and (b) don't underestimate the difficulty of the decision of what to do about Ortiz in the NL park at 5280 feet altitude-- that choice of playing him at first base after a whopping 9 appearances at first this year could just as easily have gone the other way if the Rockies offense hadn't, as La Baron would say, crapped the bed.  Playing Ortiz at first paid off, so it looks like managerial nothingness.)
With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 1, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot
anyone who thinks Dusty is a good manager should be locked in a room and forced to watch endless replays of the 2000 playoff series with the Mets. Watch Dusty bring in F.Rod in the ninth to give up a 2 run homer to Edgardo Alfonzo and then after JT hits the three run blast off of Armando to tie the score, watch Dusty send F.Rod back out there for the tenth, even though he has Robb Nen in the bullpen and being the home team there is no way he should be holding him back for a save situation. Then watch the idiot let Mark Gardner bat for himself with the bases loaded and the team losing in the fifth inning of an elimination game. If you still think that Dusty is a good manager after watching that series, Dusty will walk into the room and hand you a game ball. On the way out of the room you can trip over Darren Baker.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 1, 2007 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot
Well said, Drugslinger. I can't believe there are people who think Dusty is a good manager.  Fine man, maybe. (Though he sure has some thin skin on him; the Bay Area sports press is about the easiest, puffiest corps in American sport, but Dusty sure could get prickly at the SLIGHTEST question about a tactical decision.)

For me, it's the exact same as when otherwise seemingly intelligent adults question evolution. HUH?  What is it about the massive f'ing accumulated evidence that has eluded you???? Or is it the entire concept of belief based on data rather than superstition/toothpicks & wristbands????

With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 1, 2007 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: SLO is absolutely right; Baker = idiot
But when you get to the post-season????  It's (nearly) ALL strategy, baby.

That is what you said.  It's not an anecdote, it's a  counterexample.  Sometimes, winning the WS requires NO i.e. ZERO strategy.  And in fact, one can win a WS with a NEGATIVE strategy (see Brenly, Bob).

Now, even if you were to soften your point and say 'in the post season, strategy is important", I would disagree.  

I don't think strategy is particularly important during the post season.  It's a good idea not to give up outs, and post season bullpen/pitching management is different, which could trip up a moron.

But consider the horrific post season non-strategic mistakes of one Baker, Dusty:  Shawon and Shinjo.

Hmmm... but I see you think deciding whether to play Ortiz at first is strategy...

by zenbitz on Nov 2, 2007 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
if hoping that Reds let Dunn go was dumb, then whats his true mkt value?  $15 mil?  

by slojoe on Nov 1, 2007 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Might even be closer to $20M then it is to $15M.  Bottom line is that even if keeping Dunn is not in the Reds long term plans keeping him until June 15th when his full no trade clause exprires and then trading him is far more valuable to the Reds then the $8M it would cost to pay him until June 15th.

by giantsrainman on Nov 1, 2007 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunn is as bad a defensive player as Bonds
And not as good a hitter.

Dunn was about 30 runs above average offensively in 2007. If he is an average defender he would be worth $20M. He is not.

Defensively, RZR had him a 18 runs below average, ZR at 4 runs below average, averaged out to 11 runs below average.

Offensively and defensively, 20 runs above average. That is worth about $16M.

by rfloh on Nov 1, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Dunn is as bad a defensive player as Bonds
I think most AL teams would see Dunn as a DH and most NL teams would see him as a 1B.  In either case I think at these other positions he would not be negative defensively.

by giantsrainman on Nov 1, 2007 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Dunn is as bad a defensive player as Bonds
How could he possibly play poor defense as a DH? Sitting on the bench is now a new defensive position?

I didn't know 1B was a "positions."

You crack me up rainman.

by kwyjibo on Nov 1, 2007 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Dunn is as bad a defensive player as Bonds
The point is that you can't give up runs defensively as a DH so as a DH he is not worth -10 runs defensively like he is as a leftfielder.  I also am of the belief that as a 1B he would be average defensively and thus the same effect as being a DH.  And yes, DH and 1B are positons not just a single position.  The bottom line is that to most teams Dunn would play for other the the Reds his negative outfield defense would not effect his value.  His value would be just his offensive value which is closer to $20M/yr then it is to $15M/yr.

by giantsrainman on Nov 1, 2007 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dusty outmanaged LaRussa In 02
Remember that squeeze play?

Dusty is treated unfairly by the "experts", and I really enjoy reading the Keith Law and Rob Neyer points of view. He's not the best or worst manager in regards to strategy and he deserves more respect. At one time he was the guy everyone wanted to play for. In 2002 and 2003 he was probably a top 5. He is an intelligent, well-rounded, soulful guy and I was proud to have him as our leader. We had an identity then. But would I want him as our skipper today? Probably not. I'd keep Bochy until we get good again (2009), and then try and lure someone cooler.

by Goat on Nov 1, 2007 11:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Dusty outmanaged LaRussa In 02
Strategically, I believe Dusty is a poor manager (as are most managers, for that matter).  But his managerial strength has been motivation.

I'm not a huge motivational guy, but many players swore by Dusty.  Players actually wanted to play for him, which may have helped in free agent recruitment.  Dusty was able to co-exist with difficult superstars Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa.

The thing I worried most about was Dusty's possibly killing off arms.  For years he avoided doing so, but the odds seemed to be catching up with him when he left the Giants.

Robb Nen lost his arm under Dusty, and I don't think Dusty helped Felix Rodriguez much.  Who knows if Dusty overused Russ Ortiz and contributed to Russ's ultimate arm problems?  Livan Hernandez threw a lot of pitches under Dusty, but went on to flourish in 2003-2005.

Dusty did appear to overuse both Mark Prior and Kerry Wood.  Prior's problems began with a baseline collision, so it probably isn't fair to put all his difficulties on Dusty, but I think Wood's problems lie more squarely on Dusty's shoulders.

I wonder how many managers actually make a positive difference for their teams.  Strategically, the best managers are usually the ones who hurt their teams the least.  But motivation would indeed seem to be a possible positive force.  And it is his motivation that Dusty is known for.

by sharksrog on Nov 1, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Dusty outmanaged LaRussa In 02
I used to think that perhaps Dusty was hard on pitchers arms...then I saw Alou manage.

by Goofus on Nov 1, 2007 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Wood
I remember reading an article about the Cubs being pissed because Wood's HS coach pitched started him in both ends of a double-header after they drafted him.  So while Dusty didn't help, Wood's history suggests that he was probably headed for trouble even before his Cubs days.
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 1, 2007 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Wood
I read a funny thing the other day that said the Cubs think that Dusty has illegally tampered with both Kerry Wood and Mark Prior, in an attempt to get them to sign with the Reds this offseason. Imagine the two great arms that he ruined actually wanting to be reunited with him.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 1, 2007 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Trying to Spring Some Wood
This could be the first time since the National League of Baseball Clubs formed under a contract that instead of lodging a grievance for a violation, a team lodges a thank-you and a cookie basket.
With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 1, 2007 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
There are hitters I'd prefer over Dunn, but there are also hitters I'd prefer under Dunn.

There, I'm done.

by Goofus on Nov 1, 2007 12:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I feel the same way about steaks.
"When Jackson Williams thinks of how many times Madison Bumgarner has tried to kill Tyler Walker..."

by multiphasic on Nov 1, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
The guy I wanted to manage the Giants in 2007 was Manny Acta, who is one of the more progressive managers.  Manny took a team made up primarily of retreads and won more games than the Giants.

Bochy was a "safe" choice -- not an inspired one.  Was it truly realistic to expect more?

by sharksrog on Nov 1, 2007 12:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
I'm pretty sure you weren't the only one who wanted Acta.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 1, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Your statement implies that the Giants were not made up primarily of retreads.
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 1, 2007 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Frankly I am happy with this.  I don't want Dunn.  He either strikes out or hits bombs.  He's like Rocky Colavito... but alive, and still doesn't have his arm.
If Brad Hennesy had Steve Kline's attitude you'd get Rob Nen... without the triple digit heat.

by milesntrane on Nov 1, 2007 1:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: No'Dunn for Giants
Sorry.  He's not dead.  I assumed he was because he has a curse named after him, and those are generally reserved for dead guys
If Brad Hennesy had Steve Kline's attitude you'd get Rob Nen... without the triple digit heat.

by milesntrane on Nov 1, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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