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Grant_tiny by Grant on in News

Joe Lefebvre is out as the Giants hitting coach. Here's a handy guide for the next guy:

What Lefebvre said to Ray Durham:

I think you're looping your swing when the lefties come at you with hard stuff in. Make sure to level that swing off, and try and pull it down the left-field line.

What Lefebvre should have said to Ray Durham:

When you swing at a pitch, try not to swing so old.

What Lefebvre said to Rich Aurilia:

You're too quick to pull the ball. You should take a couple of weeks and concentrate on going the other way with outside pitches. When the scouting reports catch up with you, then you can sit on balls to pull.

What Lefebvre should have said to Rich Aurilia

When you swing at a pitch, try not to swing so old.

There are really good hitting coaches, I'm sure. It's likely that there are terrible hitting coaches who are too quick to tinker with the swings of young players. I don't think Lefebvre was the former; he wasn't magic. And he probably wasn't the latter; the young players the Giants had did just fine, for the most part.

Am I being too glib? Is there really a hope that the Giants can bring in some hitting genius to help the offense? My guarantee: the new guy is going to be hired based on his theories of littlethingsology. Hitting to the right side with no outs. Sacrifice flies to set up the sacrifice bunts that set up the sacrifice flies. Hopefully, he'll also be able to bring something substantial to the table.

Dual comment starter: Does the hitting coach make a huge difference at the MLB level? And who's your guess at Lefebvre's replacement? I'm guessing J.T. Snow, though that's nothing but speculation.

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Re: Change
YOU CAN'T TEACH SPEED!
Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Oct 9, 2007 1:43 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Eric Byrnes begs to differ.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Oct 9, 2007 2:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Every time I hear the word "glib" I can't help but imagine Tom Cruise on the Today Show with Matt Lauer.

"Matt, Matt, Matt, you're being glib"

Anyways, huzzah! I'm glad to see Joe go. I don't think coaches can polish a turd into gold but at the same time I think they can help.

I can't remember what game it was this year, but the Giants were getting shutout and by the 7th inning or so the other pitcher had only thrown 70 pitches at most. They did a in-game interview with Joe and he rambled off this piece of advice "I think we just need to be more aggressive" I couldn't believe it. I expected to hear "Maybe take a few pitches, be selective, look for something to drive" but, instead, his response was "HACK AWAY FELLAS!"

by xanthan on Oct 9, 2007 1:44 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Brain-dead Caucasian hitting coaches preaching hacking at slop nightly?
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Oct 10, 2007 6:40 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I vote for Bobby Estalella to boost the quotient of hot chicks who show up at the ballpark. What else is a hitting coach good for?
Jesse Foppert: Welcome home, my son. And meet your adopted brother, Kelvin Pichardo. He's from the Dominican Republic.

by leftymalo on Oct 9, 2007 1:45 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
I'd hit it.
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 9, 2007 1:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Because you're one of the few on McC that could get away with saying that:+11 :-)
Ben Copeland, because face it, Who was left to adopt ?

by nvsfg on Oct 9, 2007 2:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Couldn't JT Snow do that too?

by Lipssan1 on Oct 9, 2007 3:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
JT could bring in the MILF crowd, too. I know quite a few ladies over 40 who love JT.
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 9, 2007 5:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
And uh...for the record here...that would be a good thing for us male McCoven as well.

PBB <hearts> older ladies...not just the MILF's

Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Oct 9, 2007 9:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I had a girlfriend (now ex-, thank goodness) who always called him "Bobby 'Yes-I-Wanna'-lella".

Probably a good thing she's an ex.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Oct 9, 2007 5:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
That's awesome.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 5:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Wow...wasn't expecting this one bit.  It's about damn time that Sabes dumped his high school lover.

Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Oct 9, 2007 1:46 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
This is like when Joanie and Chachi broke up.

::sniff::

Talk about Sabes' dumpster diving, though, check out that shirt.  

by satyricrash on Oct 9, 2007 5:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
They offered him another job in the organization. Maybe he can bring the muffins.

by robbgin on Oct 9, 2007 1:49 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Perhaps he can bring the noise, as well as the funk.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Oct 9, 2007 1:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Another job?
Yup, he's the new fluffer for the team, so I imagine they gave him four or five new kinds of jobs to work on.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another job?
Sorry for that. I feel dirty now. It won't come off.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another job?
I could use a fluffer right about now!

Is that any better?  Was any of that filth transferred to one PBB?!?

Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Oct 9, 2007 2:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sadly, no
I actually felt dirtier for taking the easy "jobs" pun than for making the dirty joke itself...
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 3:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Praise Allah, a positive step forward. I hope they hire someone who can make a real change as hitting coach.

I'd like to see JT get the job as hitting coach. If not, he can coach first base and work as an infield instructor, doing what Ron Washington did with the A's before he went to the Rangers. I think JT would make a great coach in any capacity.

Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 9, 2007 2:02 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
+Everything
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 2:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
You're only saying that because you'd hit it.
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 9, 2007 3:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Let the woman have her fun!
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John , d'ja see this peephole down here?
All is said and done , so... Let's rock , Rockies!! (Kiss my bolts , you 'Pitters!)

by victor frankenstein on Oct 9, 2007 5:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
You can knit a sweater!
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 9, 2007 5:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
You're absolutely right there.
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 9, 2007 5:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Last time I ever reference anyone in a bowtie.
Wasn't Lefebvre the hitting coach that got oodles and oodles and oodles of praise in George Will's Men at Work?

Then again, I'm pretty damn sure Rene Lachemann was also drooled over in that same book, and he's just as canned.  

Bad day for dudes with weird French names.

"When Jackson Williams thinks of how many times Madison Bumgarner has tried to kill Tyler Walker..."

by multiphasic on Oct 9, 2007 2:20 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
I don't know whether a hitting coach can really make a difference at the major league level, but I'm damn sure that Joe Lefevbre didn't.
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 2:24 PM PDT   0 recs

Clean-up on aisle 3
After three losing seasons the hitting dude gets canned but GM gets re-signed - hmmm, interesting. Moving on.

Why not Mr. San Diego? Yes, he is managing SDSU but he is also doing some tv work for TBS for MLB playoffs. Go ahead Bochy, give Tony Gwynn a call. He has the hitting credentials and has coached/managed so he knows how to instruct the kids. Would be nice to see a team full of hitters who have a plan and also use the entire field.

by wilriv21 on Oct 9, 2007 2:38 PM PDT   0 recs

Upshaw
I'm even happier to see Wille Upshaw gone along with Lefebvre.

I bartend downtown SF and Upshaw used to come in like he owned the place. He would ask for twice as much--for half the price--and worst of all, since nobody recognized him (for good reason), he'd flash his 2002 NLCS ring around like as if it wasn't a huge spit in the face reminder of a World Series lost to Giants fans.

Oh, and he couldn't teach anybody how to hit either.

by Birdman on Oct 9, 2007 2:39 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Upshaw
Maybe not, but he was pretty good at...umm...what exactly do first base coaches do anyway?

You always see 'em whispering with the runner. I like to imagine they say something like "See that white thing over there? That's second base..."

SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Upshaw
I posted this last time there was an opening:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2005/9/29/43058/8029/8#8

I'm still available, but my price has gone up.

Vote for Grant

by Goofus on Oct 9, 2007 3:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Upshaw
Oh right, I forgot about that whole holding-back-the-arguing-player thing - a vital function of the first base coach. If Bobby Meacham of the Padres was better at it, Bud Black wouldn't have had to get into the act, and Milton Bradley might still have all his ligaments intact.
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Upshaw
As seen in a "In The Bleachers" comic strip...  When the player gets lost on his way to first base and screams, "Where do I go now???" it is the job of the first base coach to say, "That way!  Second base is THAT way!"
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Oct 9, 2007 3:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I'm glad they're keeping Tim Flannery.  I never thought a third base coach could do much to make the game exciting but damn if he isn't fun to watch.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 9, 2007 3:03 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
A move they really had to make.  If they kept Lefebvre after that season it would be a message to the rest of the organization that you don't have to show results to keep your job.

JT is my favorite as a replacement.  Maybe he can teach Schierholz and Ort some plate discipline.

Thank God that's over.

by southcitysteve on Oct 9, 2007 3:05 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
That and he's a lefty who had to suffer hitting in AT&T, so he can relate to what Fred Lewis and Nate will be going through.
Thank God that's over.

by southcitysteve on Oct 9, 2007 3:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
OH HAPPY FUCKING DAY!!!!

seriously, I'm thrilled about this. It shows that at least SOMEONE in SFG HQ is paying attention and making noises about being accountable.

Wooooo.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Oct 9, 2007 3:12 PM PDT   0 recs

No one told me it was Fucking Day
But yeah, I guess that would be pretty happy.
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 9, 2007 3:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I like the Billy Hayes tag line.  What inspired it?  I'm glad he's coming back in '08.  And you're right....don't know if hitting instructor at that level can make that big a difference but they needed a change for sure.  
Go Huskers...

by Traylude on Oct 9, 2007 10:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yay!
who knows how much a hitting coach really does at the ML level, in most cases, probably not that much, especially for a veteran team where most of the guys know how to watch film and analyze their own swings and approaches.  But for a team full of young kids and prospects (what we SHOULD have next year) they probably can have a fairly big impact.  Perhaps this is a sign that they know they are going young and need a guy who can really teach hitting and (please please please) plate discipline.  

This after the GM's candidate for team MVP had a .298 OBP with 15 walks and 53 strikeouts.

2002? I'm over it. But I'll never be over Rich Aurilia.

by wjackalope on Oct 9, 2007 3:30 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
I used to think a hitting coach can't do much, but after watching the Barry interview with Kruk and Kuip, I've changed my mind.

Hearing how good Bobby Bonds was at identifying pitchers' pitch-sequence tendancies and identifying them tipping their pitches made me wish he was still alive and coaching our guys.

Vote for Grant

by Goofus on Oct 9, 2007 4:01 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Before Bobby Bonds, Matt Williams was Pedro Feliz.
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 9, 2007 4:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
This sentence, if taken very literally, is AMAZING.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 4:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Dusty Baker taught Matt Williams to hit a slider back in '89.
Thank God that's over.

by southcitysteve on Oct 9, 2007 4:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I think a hitting coach in baseball is a little bit like a swing coach in golf.  Tiger Woods' swing coach isn't there to make Tiger a better golfer but more to maintain Tiger's swing so he plays to his full potential on a relatively consistent basis.  That's just my take on it.

Unless I have completely missed on my guess, Flannery failed Durham and Aurilia in that he couldn't correct their mistakes even enough to get them close to their career averages.

I think Snow is definitely worth a shot.

Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

by Woody Wins on Oct 9, 2007 4:08 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Don't think you meant Flannery
Vote for Grant

by Goofus on Oct 9, 2007 4:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Maybe he did.  It's been documented that both Durham and Aurilia had their R3BORP (Rounding Third Base Over Replacement Player) fall well below their career averages in '07.
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 9, 2007 5:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
*Lefebvre
Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

by Woody Wins on Oct 9, 2007 5:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
On the other hand, I won't be able to make my Something About Mary joke anymore...
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2007 4:50 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
It had a good run.
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 5:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
The Giants braintrust really should have taken that into account when they decided to fire him.  I'm very disappointed in their decision-making process.
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Oct 9, 2007 10:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Durham and Aurilia are beyond saving.  I never thought Snow was a good enough hitter to teach it.  Let him keep teaching Ortmeier to play 1B.  If we really wanna "do the little things", we should go out and get Ricky Henderson or Joe Morgan or somebody who knows how to hit for avg.
The 2008 Giants: Think 2005 Rockies with a payroll twice as big and half as much talent.

by BCsteve on Oct 9, 2007 5:20 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Oh and then Joe wouldn't be on television! Good thinking!
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 9, 2007 5:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Joe Morgan's career AVG: .271
JT Snow's career AVG: .268

Morgan definitely had a more distinguished career than Snow, but not because of his batting average.

The thought of Rickey Henderson as a coach is hilarious enough to be worth trying for that reason alone. He'd be out there telling Bochy "You should put Rickey in, Rickey can still hit better than any of these guys..."

Or maybe he'd institute mandatory naked batting practice.

SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 5:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
The only reason Morgan's career avg. was that low was because he played 7 years too long.  But seriously, hire Ricky.  The team has no personality now.  A little Ricky can't hurt.
The 2008 Giants: Think 2005 Rockies with a payroll twice as big and half as much talent.

by BCsteve on Oct 10, 2007 9:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I'd give Sabean a +1 on this, but it's really a -2 for waiting so long.

I do think a pitching coach can make a difference at the big league level, but only when the hitters actually need help (which the Giants obviously did), and when the hitters listen.

I have no in-house candidates I'd suggest.  None of the Giants hitting coaches in the minors have impressed me much.  Although, maybe Roberto Kelly....

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Oct 9, 2007 5:27 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
When no one offers Barry a job, let him come back as batting coach. Then, when the rosters expand in Sept., add him and let him play a farewell round of games if we're not in the race. Let him prove it's not about him or the money.

by NearestNorwich on Oct 9, 2007 5:27 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
P.S. -- On second thought and realizing how bent out of shape everyone gets no matter what is said about Barry, this is meant as a joke folks.

by NearestNorwich on Oct 9, 2007 5:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
I vote for Will Clark.
If Pedro Feliz and Randy Messenger had a kid they could name him Happy Messenger.

by The Thrill on Oct 9, 2007 5:43 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Would you settle for Jack?
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 5:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Jack clark for personal finance coach!
Vote for Grant

by Goofus on Oct 9, 2007 6:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
It doesn't matter who we want. We don't get jack.

by Moggeee on Oct 9, 2007 11:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Change
Some idle speculation...wjackalope suggests a hitting coach can make a bigger impact on a young team than a veteran one, which makes sense.

But I would speculate that a hitting coach matters less on any team that has a great hitter like Bonds on it, even if the rest of the team is young. Bonds wasn't taking advice from Joe Lefevbre, I'm sure. And rookies who see Bonds not working with the hitting coach are (possibly even subconciously) going to be less likely to go to the coach themselves. By Lefevbre's own account, he mostly waited for players to come to him rather than approaching the players.

So, hypothetically, you might as well keep Lefevbre around as long as Bonds is on the team. With Bonds gone, you've got a better chance of having the coach make a difference, so you should make sure you actually have a good one...

SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 9, 2007 5:49 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
actually I remember when Barry hit an opposite homerun and went and hugged Lefevre, and they said that Lefevre had been working with Bonds all day working on his opposite field stroke. I don't believe the hitting coach is the problem when a team can't hit, and a pitching coach is the problem when a team can't pitch. I always think it's upper management and the manager trying to shift blame away from themselves and the job they've done and the team they've built when they make a scapegoat of a coach. However in this case I think a change was necessary and the Giants did the right thing. They'll be lots of young hitters coming through here the next few seasons, and their going to need a coach with a solid resume who has shown he can develop young kids. In addition, Lefevre was Sabean's boy, and even though I don't think much of the job Bochy has done so far, the coaches should be HIS guys, not Sabean's. I see the Mets are having the same kind of problem here with Omar Minaya making all the coaching decisions for the team. The manager should pick and choose his own coaches, and based on Bochy's comments, I think the new hitting coach will be one of his guys. The manager and the coaches need to all be on the same page.
Joe Simpson:"I was told by a player that the hardest throwers he saw all year were Ubaldo Jimenez and RANDY MESSENGER"

by rxmeister on Oct 9, 2007 7:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Can someone please explain
I cannot for the life of me figure out how to vote for Grant on this blogging contest. Can someone please explain where the mechanism is on the site that will allow me to cast my vote for Grant?
Noonan. Nooooonan!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on Oct 9, 2007 7:10 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Can someone please explain
I think there might be a link somewhere.
Thank God that's over.

by southcitysteve on Oct 9, 2007 9:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Check the bullpen
Yes. Hairy, troll-like Steve Kline is the obvious link between the ancient troglodytes and the modern southpaw specialist.

by Moggeee on Oct 9, 2007 11:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is like the SATs
See? The standard is too high.

Grant's in second place because he made us pass an intelligence test before we could vote.

by Moggeee on Oct 9, 2007 11:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bonds
Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 9, 2007 7:14 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Seriously, if the Giants hitters are going to suck next year, which they likely will (ir)regardless of who the next hitting coach is, they should at least try to work counts and show some real patience at the plate.

The new hitting coach should preach patience, especially to the young guys. The 2008 version of the Giants probably won't score much more than the 2007 version, but they have a fighting chance by getting the starters out early and forcing opponents to use their bullpen sooner.

Seriously, guys don't need a ton of power or superior physical skills to take pitches and foul off close ones and shorten their swings with 2 strikes. If they can't do that, they shouldn't be in the bigs.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 9, 2007 7:21 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: Change
Amen.  This was my big problem with Lefebvre.  Night after night after night, we saw the same hackeriffic approach from Giants hitters in situations when they had no business swinging like that.  How many times did one of our pitchers throw 25+ pitches in an inning only to have the offense go 1-2-3 on 6 pitches and put the starter right back out there?  I don't know, but it seemed like a lot.
My World Series prediction: Pain (Boston over Philly in 6). Rajai is still fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Oct 9, 2007 7:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs