Open Fifth Starter Thread
It would seem like a good time for fifth starter discussion would be when pitchers and catchers report to camp. The alternatives today, though, would all entail complaining about Mark McGwire not getting in the Hall of Fame. Boring stuff, to be sure. So.....
Brad Hennessey
When he was moved to the bullpen last season, his velocity jumped by a couple of miles. That might have been a hot gun, or it might have been unrelated to the role change. Whatever the case, it can only reinforce the idea that Hennessey is destined for relief. He throws a good sinking fastball, an occassionally effective slider, and not much else. I have no idea why he's still considered a rotation candidate. He was much better last year as a reliever, and his profile has pointed toward relief since the day he was drafted.
Jonathan Sanchez
It's popular in some circles to break a young pitching prospect in with some indentured bullpen time, but I don't think a large-scale study has ever been done on the subject. Without any hard data, it doesn't seem right to point at Johan Santana and declare the strategy to be infalliable. The Giants could really, really use a hard-throwing, late-innings lefty for their bullpen, though. That would tempt me, and I while I'm rooting for Sanchez to win the rotation spot, he doesn't exactly have a full arsenal of pitches either.
Kevin Correia
Issues with iffy control can be minimized in the bullpen, and that's how Correia found some success last season. Like Sanchez and Hennessey, Correia has made a much better reliever in his short career than a starter.
Tim Lincecum
It messes up his service time (he'd be eligible for arbitration earlier) and it is goofy to jump young pitchers straight up from A-ball, but if Lincecum averages 15 strikeouts this spring would the Giants have a choice? There are plenty of other options, so they most certainly would have a choice. I'd rail against the decision, and be glued to every Lincecum start.
Russ Ortiz
It'd be perfect for Ortiz to come back to a team that he starred for; he'd have a great chance to be a league-average starter, and signing him would raise fan interest for sure. I'm just not sure that San Jose has room in their rotation.
The Jamey Wright Dark Horse Candidate Memorial Award winner if he signs, this idea would almost make sense in the right organization. If Sabean had any track record of trading overperforming veterans for something the team actually needs at the break, there might be some upside to taking a chance on Ortiz. But two pitching-starved franchises took a look at Ortiz, and wanted nothing to do with him this offseason -- one of those teams was the freaking Royals. A division rival had him on the roster, but preferred to pay him scores of millions to not pitch rather than pay him to pitch. His velocity is up in 15 winter league innings? Oh, sweet. You can file that with Lance Niekro's commitment to plate discipline last offseason.
Sun Woo Kim
Brian Cooper. That's a fun game. Let's try it again.
Sun Woo Kim
Brian Powell. One more time.
Sun Woo Kim
Jamey Wright. Okay, I'm done with the emergency eighth starter word association game. The problem is that the last guy actually won the job last season. There's no problem with having former prospects in AAA, though. And whenever I see a former prospect still struggling as a starter at age 28, I wonder if there would be a chance for him to increase velocity coming out of the bullpen. He isn't going to make an impact on the big club this year, so it's kind of a moot point.
To recap:
Will probably make better relievers in the long-term - Hennessey, Sanchez, Correia
Not quite ready, though a dominant spring could change that mindset- Lincecum
Whatever - Sun Woo Kim
"But then I thought, 'When am I ever going to be in Haiti again?'" - Russ Ortiz
Based on nothing but last year, I'd go with Sanchez, but it's early yet.
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I'd be open to the following:
Hennessey
Correia
Sanchez
Lincecum
Moss (if the stuff about his stuff being better stuff isn't just stuff and it's true)
Ortiz (if he goes 0.00 ERA in a large role in ST)
And basically, for all of them but Lincecum, if their stuff is better than some of the bullpenners (Benitez, Chulk, Kline, Hennessey, Correia, and Sanchez are protected to being on the roster and add Worrell if he's healthy) then they go in the pen and players like Misch, Wilson, Munter, Taschner, and Cortes go into the minors.
A vote for Sanchez is a vote for America
I want Sanchez in there and I believe the Giants organization wants him in there too. Why would they have sent him down to Fresno to work on his stamina last season if they didn't plan on using him in the rotation? Have they pulled the plug on that experiment already?
It's hard to not want him in the bullpen for the reasons Grant listed. If Sanchez makes the rotation that makes three lefties, with Lowry and Zito in there too. Is there anything overwhelmingly good/bad to be said about being loaded with left-handed starters?
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 9, 2007 2:52 PM PST reply actions
Re: A vote for Sanchez is a vote for America
The only possible problem... unless lefties are adept at hitting the outside corner (like Woody in his prime), they lose a lot of the benefit of AT&T Park, since the park generally plays fair to righty power hitters.
Re: A vote for Sanchez is a vote for America
I like the bullpen, but he played plenty there last year and it can only do so much to get you ready for starting (in the bullpen you never see the same batter twice in one game... etc.). Get him in there now while we have the open spot and plenty of experience the rest of the way up! Signing Zito should have made it safer to go with a first year starter at the back of the rotation with Hennessorreia (preferably, Correia) as backup.
But barring Sanchez, I would hope that Correia got a chance to start because he does have the best chance at being decent, and I'm a "Correia for bullpen!"-ite, so that's got to be saying something.
by howtheyscored on Jan 9, 2007 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
"two first year starters in '08"
Well, it would have to be Lowry or Morris, but...
To change my tack to adjust for my original oversight, wouldn't keeping Sanchez in the bullpen this year with the idea that he is still a starter in the making force him back to the bullpen in '08 when Linc gets the inevitable ROY attempt?
So we either see what Sanchez can do this year or put him on the burner for two? Yikes, that's not an idea I like a whole heck of a lot.
And if Sanchez doesn't wow us this year, back to the bullpen permanently to make room for Linc. If he does wow us, it creates a situation where Morris or Lowry (though I hate to say it for Lowry) get packaged in an offseason trade, I suppose... it's hard for me to start thinking that far ahead... but if either Morris or Lowry has a rebound in '07, somebody will give young talent for them. One year of Morris coming off of an on year should get something, and Lowry always has value with his contract as long as he's pitching remotely well.
And if either of them really really sucks and Sanchez wows, there's always the outright release or something.
Like I said, I'm not so good at thinking that far ahead, and there must be something flawed about what I'm proposing now because I'm kind of playing it by ear, and those kinds of things usually aren't flawless. But I'm still not sure what good it does to keep Sanchez in the bullpen for the next two years unless that's really where we want him anyway. Is that really where we want him anyway?
I don't, personally.
by howtheyscored on Jan 9, 2007 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Well, it would have to be Lowry or Morris, but
by GiantJim on Jan 11, 2007 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
It seems to me that with Lincecum due to make his debut in '08, it's ideal to give Sanchez his now so we don't have two at the same time...
I don't know. I like JS too much considering he's still pretty likely to be a complete bust.
by howtheyscored on Jan 9, 2007 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
So even though I like Jonathan as a starter and dreaded how the Giants jerked his chain last year from starter to reliever back to starter, I think he career value may best be served by pitching out of the bullpen.
While the Giants certainly didn't pay Barry Zito $126 million to close, Barry has an incredible and intriguing 1.93 career ERA the first time through the lineup.
I hope I'm wrong about Jonathan's arm vulnerability and that he makes it as a starter. Having three southpaw starters plus Matt Cain and Lincecum would be outstanding. But go to www.calleaguers.com and find the scouting report on Jonathan. At the bottom of the scouting report is a video of him from September, 2005. Compare that video with the one of Timmy Lincecum there, and see which arm YOU think is being more threatened.
In Timmy's delivery, it appears as if his body is the stem of a whip and his arm merely snaps through, as the tip of a whip follows the base. Jonathan seems to throw a lot with his shoulder.
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
I think the jury is still out on Correia's ability as a starter, and I would give him one more chance at it before making him a reliever permanently. Sounds like the Giants don't even consider him a candidate anymore, however, so I'll vote for Sanchez.
I'd prefer Jamey Wright to the rest of the Jamey Wright types, including Damian Moss. This isn't saying much... I'd prefer Pat Misch to Jamey Wright.
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
by E Ticket on Jan 9, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
"I can see through time!"
I, of course, would've gone with something like, "Man, that's spicy!"
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
That failing, my vote is for Hennessey, at least at the start. Sanchez, to me, is still a little too raw and unknown. The guy didn't even start playing baseball till he was 13! I can't imagine yo-yoing around across three levels and two positions (starter and reliever) was a help to him. I say let Hennessey do his thing for a little while and see how it works out. Start Sanchez at AAA for a little more seasoning. Make the switch when it's necessary.
As for the rest of the list, well...I had an elementary school teacher fond of saying "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." So, uhh...[cricket, cricket, tumbleweed]
There are a bunch of guys out there looking for new teams who I would compare to Taco Bell meat. Sure, it's Grade-D; but even so it's good enough for college kids. I'd say our best option for the 5th starter role is probably not yet on the roster, and I get the feeling Sabean is still trolling. We'll see.
by candymanhackman on Jan 9, 2007 3:03 PM PST reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
by Giant Escape on Jan 9, 2007 3:24 PM PST reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Why not take another flyer on him?
Yeah, he sucks, but I promise you he's better than Sunny Kim. And you always want tall dudes for fights.
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
by E Ticket on Jan 9, 2007 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
Free Verse for a Free Agent. (Okay, Cheap Verse.)
Jamie Wright
throws (a Right)
Like a Girl.
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
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Personally I'm going with
USC
Michigan
UCLA
FSU
Florida
LSU
Temple
Tampa Bay
Norwich
Dillon Panthers
by E Ticket on Jan 9, 2007 4:10 PM PST reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
At least you got the Panthers on there. It's about time that program got a little respect.
by howtheyscored on Jan 9, 2007 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Oh, Grant - say it again, will you?
"I have no idea why he's still considered a rotation candidate."
Thank you. I really wish someone in the front office could just permanently disable the S key whenever Hennessey's position was up for consideration. RP works just fine, or even DFA...
Interesting on Correia's success last year. I would have liked to see him be given a shot, but maybe we should just build on his bullpen success. Top choice: Sanchez. Distant second: A magically restored Ortiz.
DFA Hennessey?
Re: DFA Hennessey?
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
"
Giants sign free-agent pitcher Russ Ortiz
Adding a veteran arm in the form of a familiar face, the San Francisco Giants have signed free-agent right-handed pitcher Russ Ortiz to a one-year contract for the 2007 season, club Senior Vice President and General Manager Brian Sabean announced today.
"
Scratchin my head over this one.
by ckrehel on Jan 9, 2007 5:10 PM PST reply actions
A real treat for you viewers at home
Ortiz' Spot To Lose
In a way, that's a bit encouraging since it also means that all things being equal, the Giants would prefer that Lincecum and Sanchez start the season in the minors. IMO, that's where they both should start.
Totally agreed
While I think they could both be very helpful out of the pen, I think its more important to make sure they can be solid in the rotation in '08.
I for one would love to see Russ have his stuff back and earn the spot. Always liked the guy, and if he can pitch again, he'd be a lot of fun to root for.
by Andy from DC on Jan 10, 2007 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Ortiz' Spot To Lose
This season the Giants appear ready to build their bullpen from failed starters, rather than experienced FA relievers.
by GiantJim on Jan 11, 2007 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Despite all our raging optimism concerning Sanchez in the rotation, he pretty much blew chunks as a starter last year, and excelled as a reliever. Limited sample size, yes, but I don't think there is a hidden mystery to be discovered here. Sanchez, Correia, and Hennessey are all better out of the pen than as startes. Period.
With Ortiz most likely as fifth starter and Sanchez presumably in relief, now if Misch or Tachner make the big squad, it will be based on pure performance and not just "left handedness." Although I'm sure lefty/righty match-up aficianado Bochy would prefer 3 lefties and 4 righties in his pen, all things considered.
===
Zito-Cain-Lowry-Morris-Ortiz.
Benitez-Worrell-Kline-Sahchez-Hennessey-Correia... and in order of likelihood...
Wilson? Sadler? Tachner? Munter? Cortes? Misch? Moss? Kim?
And on the seventh day, the LORD created Tim Linecum.
Pitching depth is good, because it seems like someone on the staff is inevitably injured, but I smell a trade... or a pretty damn fine and alarmingly veteran Fresno staff. Geez, with the Giants, even the farm team features vets.
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
So with Benitez:
Benitez-Worrell-Kline-Sanchez-Hennessey-Correia-Chulk
Without Benitez:
Worrell-Kline-Sanchez-Hennessey-Correia-Chulk-????
Witout Benitez and Worrell:
Kline-Sanchez-Hennessey-Correia-Chulk-????-????
I think Wilson and Sadler are the most likely of the question mark group.
I think..
Re: I think..
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello
by EliminateMe on Jan 10, 2007 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I think..
by Nick Schulte on Jan 10, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I think..
by GiantJim on Jan 11, 2007 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Open Fifth Starter Thread
Re: Dirty Sanchez
Also keep in mind that pitchers in general have better stats as relief pitchers than as starters. They tend to have much higher K rates as relief pitchers, which in turn lowers their ERA by around 1.00
vr, Xei
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Ortiz
by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 10, 2007 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
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And Krukow
by The Balls of Summer on Jan 10, 2007 10:58 AM PST up reply actions

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