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Tired of this....

The story: Bonds tests positive for amphetamines, mentions Mark Sweeney's name.

The possible conversation between Gene Orza and Barry Bonds, according to....

A Bonds apologist:

Orza: (filling in a crossword puzzle) Barry, what's a word for something that lives in water and land?

Bonds: Amphibian.

Orza: Twelve-letter word for someone that can use both hands?

Bonds: Ambidextrous.

Orza: Name of a drug that rhymes with praletamines?

Bonds: I don't know.

Mark Sweeney: Amphetamines?

Bonds: Yeah, amphetamines.

Orza: You get that from Sweeney?

Bonds: Yes. Yes I did.

Orza: (turns off tape recorder) See you in Hell, rat fink.

Bonds: Wait, what?

A Bonds hater:
Orza: Barry, I hate to tell you this, but you've tested positive for....

Bonds: Tejada gave me the injection. I had arthritis. I thought it was ecstasy. Talk to my lawyers.

Orza: No, you tested positive for amphetamines.

Bonds: What? Man, that was Mike Sweeney's stuff. He was like, "Here, try this coffee," and was all winking and stuff. So I tried it, and I could taste the amphetamines right away, and I was all, "Yuck! Hey, Mike, that kind of thing is illegal, and I have half a mind to report you!", and he's all....

Orza: Wow. When did this happen? Was it in the Royals clubhouse, or yours?

Bonds: Royals?

Orza: Mike Sweeney's on the Royals. Did you mean your teammate Mark Sweeney?

Bonds: They're two different guys? Then, it was the guy on my team. He was all, "Hey, all the cool players are drinking this coffee," and I was all, "Listen, Mike or Mark. I am not into illegal substances. Period."

Bottom line, from the ESPN article:

Under baseball's amphetamines policy, which went into effect last season, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test.
IF: Someone broke the rules to leak this information,

THEN: The reason for doing so is to implicate Bonds in yet another scandal.

ERGO POST PROMPTER EX HOC: They have an anti-Bonds agenda that would also benefit from the suggestion that Bonds is a total rat fink who is willing to implicate anyone and everyone to exonerate him. Seriously. I promise I'm not an apologist, but it is far more likely that the leaker was doing it to further damage Bonds's credibility and not to be some Superhero J. Goodperson serving The Public's Right to Know. Those are the only two motives I can think of, and the first one - coupled with "unnamed sources" and shadowy implications of treachery - is so, so, so sketchy, especially when reported by those wacky New York papers.

WORTH NOTING: Bonds is kind of an ugly human being. It wouldn't surprise me if he were the type to throw other people under the bus. Remember the Seinfeld where George pushes his way past women, children, and Jon Favreau to escape a fire? That's what I'd expect from Bonds in a similar situation. Just so everyone knows I'm not disbelieving that it could happen, but that Occam's Razor could shave both ways on this one.

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Re: Tired of this....
You know, I think a lot of people wished Barry would take some ecstasy before they asked him questions.

by Skaldheim on Jan 11, 2007 1:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I defend Barry
Bonds is not ugly. He is handsome.

(Except for the acne on his back.)

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 1:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: I defend Barry
About 10 years ago, someone told me I looked like George Costanza (and I wasn't even bald or fat back then).  That really hurt, sending me into a premature midlife crisis.  But if BB and George are both "ugly," then I must look also like BB.  Thank you Grant!  

by ilykeitlykedat on Jan 11, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey hey now..
George was being a hero!  He was clearing a way to safety and pushing people down, which you know is the safest place to be in a fire.
Here's to a good 2007. Or 2008. Or 2009. Or 2010. Or...

by WalrusMan on Jan 11, 2007 1:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Only repeating what was already said in the diary comments section, but Orza says Bonds did not point the finger at anyone.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/01/11/bonds.amphetamines/1.html

by War on Jan 11, 2007 1:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I read this and I had a similar reaction.
On the one hand, nothing about the prospect of Barry rattin out a teammate sounds suprising to me. I have always appreciated the mans abilties, but never his personality. Since I hold the belief that, in baseball, what happens in the clubhouse is as important as what happens on the field, it has never suprised me that the Giants have failed to win a championship with Bonds. "Hitting is a solitary act. Winning isnt." So the saying goes. Basically, I didnt need a reason to not like Bonds, but this certainly didnt help.

On the other hand, this story is so swarmy (unnamed sources, the implication that a MLB rule was broken through this leak, the freakin Daily News for gods sake) that I cant help but give some credence to Bonds' parinoia. How could you not think for a minute that baseball and the press were "out to get" Barry after reading a story like this.

The whole thing stinks. I feel gross having read it.

 

by ckrehel on Jan 11, 2007 1:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I feel gross having read it too. Big blight on my baseball fan experience, like someone puked on my genuine jersey.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A Bonds Admirer, but not a Bonds Apologist
If this were happening to Gary Sheffield, we'd be lapping it up.

And very few would feel dirty for having read it.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 1:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: A Bonds Admirer, but not a Bonds Apologist
But why would this ever be happening to Gary Sheffield?
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
SF  Chron reports that Barry voluntarily told the team of his positive test.

There, I feel vindicated again.

<(-'.'-)>

by lunaticfridge on Jan 11, 2007 1:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Talking about Surges
We may have found out the reason for Bonds improved play in the second half of last season.  

Just a side thought, was Durham also tested?

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Talking about Surges
This paragraph needs to get more play:
It was known last year that Bonds was playing with the help of numerous prescription drugs that were helping him cope with the pain of strengthening his thrice surgically repaired right knee, and a left elbow that locked up during Spring Training because of floating bone chips. Bonds didn't try to hide his prescription drug use, keeping the bottles in his locker at AT&T Park and taking the pills openly.

I mean, c'mon, if you or I were getting treated for these things, there would be varying degrees of both amphetamines and steroids in the mix, I imagine.

I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 2:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Talking about Surges
Sudafed and Benadryl have amphetamines in them, for instance, and apparently, these types of drug tests don't indicate where the stuff came from.

If Barry was going around telling people about the test result, as the Chron article indicates, then it certainly jives with this possibility.

I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So Sweeney had Sudafed and Benadryl in his locker
and as Mr Bonds strolled by Sweeney's locker and noticed the bottles of Sudafed and Benadryl he just helped himself?  

Just wonder what Sweeney's test results looked like after taking the same Sudafed and Bebadryl.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy it
Amphetamines speed up a lot of things, but healing is not one of them.

And Bonds, a sharp cookie, apparently chose not to take that route in his own defense.

Moreover, he chose not to appeal.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I don't buy it
not that I buy Bonds' possible amphetamine use as legit, but you could make the case that after taking all those pain killers (that are severe nervous system depressants) he actually needed the amphetamines to go out and play, or even stay awake. And by the way, Benadryl is actually an antihistamine and not an amphetamine. Sudafed is not an amphetamine either, but chemically related, and can cause you to test positive. The writer in the Daily News however stated he tested positive for a serious amphetamine and not an over the counter decongestant like Sudafed. And furthermore, who cares?? They ALL used amphetamines like candy before this season, and what's the big deal if not all of them stopped?? You can be sure plenty of them tested positive for amphetamines, but what's the one name that comes out as usual?? And nobody cares that information about Bonds continues to be illegally leaked. If Bonds was a nice man and talked nicely to the media and kissed babies and signed autographs, nobody would even care about all this nonsense. But Barry has the audacity to tell the media to get lost, hence the witch hunt.

by rxmeister on Jan 11, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I don't buy it
Thanks for bringing your expertise to the table
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now You Know Why
  1. Magowan said in October "Bonds will not be the centerpiece."
  2. After capitulating to the big loveable lug and his salary, the Giants are taking forever to protect themselves by negotiating contract language.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I don't know WTF to say about the situation, but this post is FTW.

by tk on Jan 11, 2007 2:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
A post named tired of this looks like as good of a place to rant as anywhere, so here's a little something that's been eating at me the past week.

McGwire was not voted into the Hall of Fame on the basis of his "suspected" steroid abuse.  Every mainstream article I have read mentions something along the lines of not having any hard evidence that McGwire was a steroids user.  However, this article would seem to contain as much evidence as anything against Bonds (apologies for the poor formatting).  

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/289500p-247837c.html

In other news, was anyone really shocked to find out ball players take amphetamines?  

Vote for Pedro...to be DFA'd!

by W8ingForATitle on Jan 11, 2007 2:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yes
In other news, was anyone really shocked to find out ball players take amphetamines?

YES.  

These players make good money, why aren't they using the undectable HGH?

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 2:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Yes
As my wife just chortled, "That's fucking true!"
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Yes
I've always admired a good chortling. She must be Swiss. I have a friend with an accordion if she's interested in an accompaniment.
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. - Homer Simpson

by attinger on Jan 11, 2007 9:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HGH and amphetamines
Two completely separate animals.  HGH would take the place of detectable steroids.
Vote for Pedro...to be DFA'd!

by W8ingForATitle on Jan 11, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A ballplayer's desire for alertness and speed is..
the least shocking thing ever.

Aaron and Mays apparently sprinkled them on their corn flakes every morning back in the days when nobody suspected, or cared.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rules in effect NOW
Yeah, and before there was an explicit rule prohibiting them, which went into effect last year.  The explicit rule prohibiting amphetamines is worth noting, as there are lots of Bonds defenders who repeat that steroid use "didn't break any rules."
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not hard evidence either...
...it's a tabloid report based on anonymous sources who link McGwire to a convicted steroid dealer.
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 2:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bonny Barnds
Only thing that matters is that he tested positive.  Either he is really dumb or got framed and framed just walked out the door.
vr, Xei
Go Dodgers!

by Xeifrank on Jan 11, 2007 2:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
So...how long into the season until there's a mist-fight in the locker room? Why does nobody talk about chemistry when prognosticating the season? It's not all about stats.

by cheno on Jan 11, 2007 2:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
A mist-fight. Sounds soft. And kind of nice, in the hot summer.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Play Misty for Me
A Mist-Fight?

At the old fog-enshrouded Candlestick, taking the stray Dodger fans into the right field stands and whupping the crap out of them.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This year's forecast: Drizzle, fog, and low clouds
In Mendocino County, every fist-fight is by definition a mist-fight.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: This year's forecast: Drizzle, fog, and low cl
Are you a fellow Mendocinan? (typing this in Hopland)
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

God's Country
Spent two enchanted years traveling from Hopland to Yorkville to Covelo to Branscomb to Little River.

Wouldn't trade 'em for a penthouse on Nob Hill.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
If only we could all just get along, like those Reggie-lead Yankees!
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Jan 12, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
It sounds perfectly plausible that a) Bonds tested positive, b) Bonds took his suspension, c) Bonds didn't rat anyone out, like Orza stated, and d) someone trying to rile up even more anti-Bonds sentiment decided to leak a story implicating Bonds as a scapegoater of Sweeney.

Remember, no one is leaking the names of other guys who had a first positive amphetamine test.

Also, there is a silver lining here - Bonds was then subject to six tests for cause, and he apparently failed none of them.  Not for steroids, not for amphetamines.

At any rate, does this mean that fans will throw green M&Ms at Bonds instead of syringes?

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 2:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
If d) did they just ... make it up? Just out of the air? That's the weird part.

I hope so with the M&Ms. Maybe they can make special ones with Barry faces on.

by tk on Jan 11, 2007 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Yeah, Sweeney's name must have come up somehow.  But no one came to Palmeiro's defense when he ratted out Tejada, so who knows.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
"Also, there is a silver lining here - Bonds was then subject to six tests for cause, and he apparently failed none of them.  Not for steroids, not for amphetamines."

That should definitely earn him a cookie.

I really couldn't care less about the drugs.  But giving up Sweeney was about as low as it gets, and perfectly typical of Bonds.  Flaxseed oil, "get my kid in the shot", there is a deflection for every accusation.

And good laughs Grant.

by Stoned Slacker on Jan 11, 2007 2:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
We have no evidence that anyone "gave up" anyone else.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Anderson is on the payroll
How much does Barry owe that guy by now?

The bill is going to be enormous.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I think Anderson is on the payroll
I've been thinking the same thing. I mean, that guy must be getting some seriously fat checks in order to keep his mouth shut and stay in friggin' jail. I don't understand why the media, with their over-hyping of everything Bonds related, hasn't really had much to say about that little nugget.

by stress on Jan 12, 2007 12:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I personally feel that with Barry back this year, what could go wrong?
With Barry back, what could go wrong?

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Jan 11, 2007 3:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Well, we're more likely to see what Sweeney says if Sweeney is dealt to another team, right?  We'll see.

Plus, in response to the people who claim this could be a false positive (really on the other thread) - I don't think that is likely at all.

From what I have read, it is standard procedure in a lab to split samples into two, in part because only a tiny bit needs to be tested, and in part to ensure that multiple samples are tested to prevent false positives.

From what I know (and anyone who works in this field could confirm or deny my statements), this shouldn't be a false positive.  From a legal standpoint, if I were Barry's lawyer (oh the wealth!), I would make damn sure that the lab followed proper procedure, and if not, I would appeal the results.  That didn't happen.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Guilty as charged
No appeal. That's all you need to know.

Unless, as Grant points out, you happen to be a Bonds Apologist.

If so, you can make a pretty convincing case to yourself that media aliens from Mars abducted Barry and souped him up with Benzedrine.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
I hope Grant's main entry will serve to pull together the discussion that's been happening across a few diaries. People seem to fall into some predictable camps: (a)news of BB's positive speed test was improperly leaked, and those who leaked it have bad motives, and therefore we have no obligation to notice that BB tested positive for speed & MIGHT have implicated (not saying blamed) Mike/Mark/Matt/Mitch Sweeney; (b) BB tested postive for speed and implicated/blamed M.Sweeney, and we don't have to notice that confidential medical/employee info was publicized, almost certainly illegally; or (c) band camp.

Many things can be true at the same time, folks, and there has been a lot of intellectual laziness around these parts as it pertains to BB.  People (like me) who say that it's no defense of BB to say steroid use "didn't break any rules" when it damn well did break rules are immediately slammed as part of the noose-and-torch crowd that's looking for BB and a sturdy tree. (Trying hard not to look at you, E.)  This after a solid year of defending BB and of absolutely butt-knifing the S.F. office of the U.S. Attys office.  I believe it is both true that the U.S. Asshattorneys have been improper and wrong-headed in the BB/Balco investigation, AND that it's still unproven whether he took steroids, AND that steroid usage before last year nevertheless was breaking the rules inasmuch as it violated criminal laws and might violate the player's contract (morals clause, covenant to keep self healthy, etc.)

This incident is another example of several things being true simultaneously.  I believe the following things are true AT THE SAME TIME:

  1. The media are biased against BB, but that doesn't make them factually incorrect. Further, I doubt their bias would lead them to make up something totally fictional out of thin air. Now, several people on here have already said not to believe anything the media say. Well, ok, but that's silly. I would agree that a good first step would be to discount their modifiers and just look at the underlying facts.
  2. BB tested positive for amphetamines. This is a fact.  Amphetamines were famously outlawed for MLB players before last season.  This is also a fact.
  3. BB said Sweeney's name somewhere in all this. Before screaming, reread the verb in that sentence. I didn't say "blamed," "implicated," "narc'ed," "tearfully said that he did whatever Sweeney told him to do just to stop the beatings," or anything-- because we do not know in what way or in what context BB referred to Sweeney.  But there was a reference made.
  4. bud selig is such a low-life shitbag that I cannot bring myself to capitalize the slugturd's name.  He has a metaphorical hard-on for BB (a literal one being impossible for him). He has all the class of marge schott combined with the brilliant insight of don "when you fly over Iraq, it doesn't look like it's on fire" rumsfeld.  If there were any way he could hurt BB, he would certainly consider it and might well do it.
  5. People who leak things that are supposed to be confidential are (with a few important and definable exceptions) scum.  This applies to the U.S. Asshattorneys on the BALCO/BB case, and to whomever leaked medical/employee records which are (I am guessing) protected by law to be confidential; and of course, players were told they'd be confidential. I hope the MLBPA will investigate this and sue whomever leaked it, and I hope BB and MS will, too.  (If there is no action on the leak by MLBPA or BB, I would find that interesting and maybe significant.)
  6. Taking amphetamines in violation of a famous but recent MLB rule is not the same as taking meth that was cooked by enslaved & hobbled children-- SO?  That's a logical fallacy to compare them.  The last time I spent much time looking at criminal procedure, it wasn't a defense to armed robbery to say "oh, yeah? Well, this one time, at Evil Camp, Hitler organized and led the murder of 6M Jews." Just because something worse happened before doesn't excuse something lesser that happened now. They aren't related. It's a straw man. (Or 'person of straw,' if you prefer.)
  7. We have zero idea who leaked this information. COULD have been the MLB front office; they're certainly on the short list. But we can't really guess yet.
In conclusion, I can simultaneously believe that selig is a horrible commissioner and possibly inclined to slag BB at the drop of an asshat; that BB was taking speed and that's a violation of rules he was aware of; that BB mentioned Sweeney somehow in connection with MLB's investigation of BB's positive test; that the media hate BB and won't be too scrupulous about precision or fact-checking stories about him; the media aren't going to make things up out of thin air; that the Giants knew about this last year and if they do anything now that it's public, they are hypocrites; this is being handled in the MLB process that allows one free positive test and escalating penalties for subsequent tests, so that's where it ends with me because the player either will or won't test positive in the future and it's really out of our hands; leakers (with a few important exceptions) are scum.

The wrongness of the leak doesn't mean that BB didn't test positive for speed and then mention Sweeney in some way.  The wrongness of taking speed and mentioning Sweeney in some way doesn't mean that an improper leak didn't happen. They can all be true at the same time.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
You are officialy the Bill O'Reilly of the Bonds debate.
"It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting..." -Pee Wee Herman

by WithTechron on Jan 11, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
oops, i just thought your use of namecalling reminded me of the right-wing blowhards on ksfo. but then, it's a bad analogy b/c o'reilly is clinically demented. i take it back, sorry. most points you made i agree w/.
"It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting..." -Pee Wee Herman

by WithTechron on Jan 11, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for clarification & retraction!
I can now put away the arsenic and strychnine.
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Thanks for clarification &amp; retraction!
Nah, the way to silence your critics is to make an example of them. Don't be sneaky and quick; make it bloody and horrifying so you set the standard for "do not eff with me." If you're gonna do something wrong, do it right man.
SFDugout: it's where all the cool kids go.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 11, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
Man, you're backpeddling faster than Gene Orza.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Wouldn't that mean that the Mayor would have cut off anyone who disagrees with him and threw all logic into the toilet for a story that fit his predetermined ideology?  I disagree.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, NorthSide! That's what I was thinking!
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Wait...wouldn't that be Keith Olberman?

by tobias on Jan 11, 2007 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Actually, I was admiring the Mayor's words, something I've never considered doing for those of Bill O'Reilly.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
That reminds me, the first time I ever heard of Lofa Tatupu was during a promtion where the winner would get to meet the guy in person or something like that.

I didn't win. Frankly, I didn't even try. I was too busy trying to figure what the hell Meatloaf A'totupu was and why somebody would want to eat it.

Sounds like a joke, I know, but this really happened.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
1. The media are biased against BB
So, the media is biased against the conservatives too.  Yes the media is biased.

2. BB tested positive for amphetamines. This is a fact.  Amphetamines were famously outlawed for MLB players before last season.  This is also a fact.
Fact.

3. BB said Sweeney's name somewhere in all this.
And Sweeney agent agrees with this too.

4. bud selig is such a low-life shitbag that I cannot bring myself to capitalize the slugturd's name.
I can - Bud Selig.  A man who truly loves the game, its history and has implemented wild card and drug testing.

5.  People who leak things that are supposed to be confidential are (with a few important and definable exceptions) scum.
Somehow I bet that the  "with a few important and definable exceptions" it is ok to leak if it meets ones own agenda.

6. Taking amphetamines in violation of a famous but recent MLB rule is not the same as taking meth that was cooked by enslaved & hobbled children-- SO?
I just love it, love it, love it when we get to pick and choose the laws we want to enforce or compare.

7. We have zero idea who leaked this information. COULD have been the MLB front office; they're certainly on the short list. But we can't really guess yet.
I can guess.  SF Chron said a major league source.  Any of the ballplayers Bonds told could be the Chron's source.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chron's source not the original leak
From the Chron article linked above:
The positive test was first reported by the New York Daily News, which said Bonds initially blamed it on a substance he had taken from the locker of teammate Mark Sweeney. The Chronicle's [major league] source confirmed the accuracy of the report [...]

Someone initially gave the info to the Daily News, and then someone (could have been the same someone, but more likely not) confirmed the positive test result to the Chron.

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
I can't stand Bud Selig. He's a small man who has done little for the strength or the state of the sport during his time in office. Lest we forget, he did implement drug testing... just as late as he possibly could.

He may love baseball and its history, but if the wild card is the only thing he's done to improve the sport (and some would argue), it doesn't make him a good man or a good commissioner.

Now Commissioner Gordon. There was a Commissioner, and what a man.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Drug Testing finally approved
Lest we forget, he did implement drug testing... just as late as he possibly could.

I would put the blame on MLBPA and its membership.  Selig had been pushing a long time for a drug testing policy before the MLBPA finally agreed.  

I would prefer MLB outsource the testing to a qualified and independent source like WADA.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Drug Testing finally approved
Fair assessment. I tend to be very quick to lambast Selig without adequately covering my accusations. It's my understanding that something like what you suggest would be much better.

Still, if his inroad to steroid testing was going to have to be public acknowledgment of the problem, it's still suspect that he didn't make a public problem of it until after the league had adequately benefited from its effects.

He's generally covered his ass very well, but I just don't buy that he's an innocent-ish party, and I don't believe he's been good for the sport, though he couldn't do much about the early problems of his commissionership.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Not sure I understand your point, but you seem to be disagreeing.  I just can't tell with what you're disagreeing, other than appreciating bud selig more than I do. (He was a 2-bit bad-haircut car dealer in Milwaukee who somehow got the Seattle Pilots after the 1969 season, then later "discovered" that it's horrible and culturally destructive to permit teams to move, except in extremis like the Expos. He also got this job because he was the puppet/buttboy of Jerry Reinsdorf in the early 1990's, and did Reinsdorf's bidding for years as Commish.)  I think you missed the point that most of the above thoughts were already published elsewhere in other diaries by other McC'ers, such as the (admittedly banal) point that the media are biased (though I dispute your point that they are biased against conservatives-- or at least, no more biased against conservatives than they are against liberals, libertarians, Greens, enviros, etc. etc.)  
I do want to address two shots which I consider cheap, though.

First, the "pick and choose which laws to enforce and compare."  Enforcing and comparing are really two different issues, and you're conflating them for a point I don't quite get.  But let me say that I am for enforcing all laws & have never suggested leniency on any legal violations. These laws include drug laws... and the laws that prohibit disclosure of grand jury testimony, which is supposed to be the nearest thing to sacred that we have.  Among others.

The second and probably cheaper shot is your rather snide suggestion that my definition of acceptable leaks -- which I stated was "definable" -- would somehow be an expedient standard for my own agenda.  If I SAID "definable," why not just challenge me to state the definition, rather than assume the conclusion that fits your preconceived/misconceived notion of what I'm saying?  I'm not picking on you-- that actually IS how people make decisions; they jump to conclusions then backfill their reasons, not even necessarily aware that that's the order their mind is working.  

My definition of acceptable leaks is really pretty easy: check any 'Whistleblower Law.' Information which is secret but where the public interest is served by disclosure and there is no other proper channel that the information would likely follow to become public; e.g., corruption, public safety, or national interest.  Pentagon Papers, ok; nuclear launch codes, not ok. Congressman using publicly-funded electronic equipment to troll the interns, leak it; grand jury testimony about almost anything, don't leak.

But, really, you can't possibly be disputing the POINT of my post that it can be simultaneously true that BB did wrong AND the leakers did wrong and that neither one excuses the other, are you?

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 7:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm for enforcing all laws..."
But dooooooood, what about the reefer?

by stress on Jan 12, 2007 1:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, one other thing
On the shot about "which laws to compare"-- When writing my post, I was responding to comments on other diaries that keep trying to defend Bonds by comparing his conduct to worse drug offenders or by comparing his conduct to earlier eras.  Specific examples include "steroids not as bad as using/dealing meth" and "Mays et al. used uppers all the time; Babe Ruth drank alcohol during Prohibition, etc."  My point was and is that those are logical fallacies in an effort to defend Bonds.  Just because Person 1 did something worse doesn't change whatever Person 2 is charged with doing; just because Mays took speed when there was no prohibition does not bear upon any player who took speed after the prohibition took effect.  

Shirley, you don't dispute that?

And before E bursts another blood vessel, let me add that there ARE valid defenses of BB, and I have to repeat them every time someone learns I'm a Giants fan.  But "others are worse," "Babe Ruth was a drunk," "Mays took speed," and "taking steroids didn't break any rules" are not among them.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 7:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Keep Swinging Mayor
You can take my point by point any way you would like.  We actually agree on most points.  On others we can agree to disagree.

I definitely have a different opinion of Commissioner Selig.  I know we have a different line of demarcation when it comes to the leak "exceptions".  Many of these exception where people leak are done to serve an agenda.  Your statement grand jury testimony about almost anything, don't leak.  would it be ok to leak ANY grand jury testimony?  Even though it is already on the record?

I agree with you that there are plenty out to make a statement with going after Bonds. I do not have a problem with that.  He broke the law and will have to pay for that. That does not preclude them from going after the others also.

by wilriv21 on Jan 12, 2007 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grand jury testimony
I said "almost" any grand jury testimony just on the chance that there is SOME theoretical circumstance that I can't currently imagine. The answer is: HELL NO, DON'T LEAK GRAND JURY TESTIMONY.  

First, witnesses who are summoned (or who sometimes ask to be subpeonaed) are assured that whatever they say is confidential and will be sacred.  So leaking g.j. testimony undermines the sanctity of their work and would make witnesses less inclined to cooperate with them.  This is a HUGE deal, Wil.  So if some dirtbag prosecutor is going to leak information, it had better be of SUCH enormous importance to the public good that it is worth putting a dent in one of the most important arms of criminal investigation that we have.  Again, there MIGHT be a scenario that makes it worth that risk, but I can't imagine something worth risking the concept of the grand jury for.

Second, you say "on the record" as if that means something.  The grand jury hears testimony from witnesses who are (a) NOT CROSS-EXAMINED, which has been called the greatest device ever invented for detecting the truth, and (b) presented SOLELY ON BEHALF OF THE PROSECUTION SIDE.  So, yeah, it's "on the record" because there's a court reporter there typing it all up and there's a transcript, but so what? It's the transcript of a (necessarily) ONE-SIDED, unfiltered dumping of all known evidence that would support indictment, and NONE of the exculpatory evidence that might eventually acquit at the (later) trial phase.

It should be obvious, then, that grand jury testimony is a great brief of the damning side, but with none of the balancing -- or even outright contradictory -- evidence of the other side.  It's not balanced.  It's not supposed to be.  Have you heard the old saying that "a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if you ask it right"?  There's a reason for that.  It's because they aren't hearing the ham sandwich's side of the story nor anyone else's contradictory information.

So for reasons that (a) protect the integral function of the grand jury and (b) understand that grand jury testimony is only the most damning possible picture, no, it's hard for me to imagine a circumstance under which leaking grand jury testimony is ok.  

And it would have nothing whatsoever to do with my "agenda," but for god's sake, can we all agree that whether an employee of a private entertainment corporation took drugs to enhance his performance DOES NOT rise to the level of things like government corruption, public safety (like a bridge built with the wrong mix of concrete), and that sort of thing?  Not worth damaging the g.j. system over stuff like this.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
The Media is biased against conservatives?  That may be the most ridiculous and unfounded statement I've heard in a while.  Just because conservative pundits repetedly refer to the "liberal media" doesn't mean it actually exists.  In fact, it doesn't.  If you look at the past 2 presidential elections and television and print stories from the major media outlets (from CNN and Fox News to the NY Times and WSJ), you'll find that the Republican candidate (Bushie) actually had FEWER articles with negative tone or accusations contained in them than did his Democratic counterpart.  Furthermore, the percentage of stories painting him in a positive light were also higher.

I am so tired of this myth of the liberal media.  It just makes me sick.

Chulk angry! CHULK SMASH!!

by CystedTwister on Jan 12, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
At most you can say that there's a substantial number of liberal writers.  But the OWNERS of the media companies are clearly conservative and guess who decides what gets printed?

by achiappanza on Jan 12, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The editors???
seriously. Take the NY Times, for example. Most read paper in the country. You guys ever read the editorials they print? They sound pretty darn liberal to me.

by stress on Jan 13, 2007 1:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool! sample size of one. Case closed! Yay!
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 13, 2007 8:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The editors???
but seriously, I thought the USA Today had the largest subscription base?

by hometownboy on Jan 14, 2007 2:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Look. I'm as tired of this shit as everybody else. You brought up my name. Let me make this simple and short.
  1.  Peds as a problem are overrated. It is a medical issue and should be considered as such and in a similar vein as extreme forms of surgical enhancements as ligament transplants.
  2.  The Peds issue was wrenched from the hands of the medical community and placed in the hands of politicians, and the rest of the Federal Government complex. Many PEDS have legitimate medical uses that are beneficial and healing. Some are not. Its complicated. They are illegal. Alcohol is also regulated by the Federal Government. Alcohol is overwhelmingly a recreational drug ingested orally in liquid form. It is the direct cause of thousands of violent and non-violent deaths and hospitalizations every year. But it is legal. And its purveyors pour millions into advertising and political campaigns every year. Nobody is seriously proposing that the 18th amendment be reinstated, in spite of the thousands of deaths and injuries. If you cannot acknowledge these simple truths about PEDs and alcohol, then you are arguing with yourself.
  3. These guys are professional atheletes. As such they are huge risk takers. PEDs are potentially hazardous to ones quanity as well as quality of life. So is driving a race car, surfing Mavericks, HALO jumps. Activities not generally experienced by most members of mass media, who tend to not engage in otherwise physically risky behavior. It takes one to understand one so to speak.  
  4. I have little respect for agenda-driven reporting which has been a staple in journalism schools for the last 40 years. Wanting to "make a difference" being the mantra. Wanting to win a Pulitizer in the same way a Barry Bonds wants to break a HR record. I have a better idea. How about they just report the facts, keep their difference-making efforts to the Op-Ed page, and let the readers make the difference, if the readers so desire.
  5.  The number of people who believe that Bonds is not being singled out, is very small. The only difference is whether some want to justify it or not. I have no stomach for mass media crusades. I had no stomach for the media crusade against Roger Maris, Cassius Clay in the early 60s, the crusade against Curt Flood, and later still Andy Messersmith when he and Dave McNally broke the reserve clause and "ruined baseball forever". And as such, I have no stomach for the crusade against Bonds now.  I do not believe that being adversarial and cynical canonizes a journalist as the patron saint of objectivity. I think mostly the opposite. I think that most mass media people believe otherwise. And thats why I think they are mostly full of shit.
I'm not going to go on, as I will change not a single solitary person's mind one way or another.

Whatever.

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Jan 11, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
If I didn't already agree with you, you would have changed my mind.

But I guess that just proves your point. Oh well, we're all happier you said it, anyway, believers and non-believers alike.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Well put, and I agree with everything you've said in this post. Good addition. Thanks.
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Has anyone ever heard anything about Sweeney having something like ADD?  Some players have received medical exemptions for substances otherwise banned.  I don't have any evidence for this, but it is possible that Bonds took something that was cleared for Sweeney but not for him.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
My two feelings on this.
  1. Not caring. He broke the rule, he'll be punished for it (increased testing for first offense, IIRC), I care equally as much as I did when Zach Day got busted with a nail file.
  2. Not caring some more, but also wondering if this makes it that much more likely that Mark Sweeney gets dealt.
For the most part, as a baseball fan, I don't care if the players I'm watching are dicks if they are really good at the game. Would I prefer it if everybody was a nice guy? Sure, but it doesn't really hurt the experience for me.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Jan 11, 2007 3:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Barry sometimes a bad actor?
Yup.

But I am still transfixed, even though he's 80, when he strides to the plate.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Amphetamines have been used in baseball for years, uh, well, up until last year anyway. Maybe this amphetamine revelation is a ploy by Barry Lamar's advisors and it is intended to cast doubt on all the baseball records past (i.e., put an asterisk on Maris' record because he was all hopped up on the speed!). Cynical? Yes. Ridiculous? Must be.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Jan 11, 2007 3:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Another Shameful Turn
Does Peter McGowan understand that he's been handed another golden opportunity to end the sharade that has been and is his team?

Peter: This is it. You can turn around your franchise, turn around the way it is perceived and do something (gasp) good for baseball. You've signed Zito - a terrible move but no matter: people like it. You've got some young pitching. There is a future, not withstanding the signings of Aurilia, Feliz, Klesko and Ortiz (all of which are beyond pathetic). Where was I? Oh yeah, dump Bonds! You've been handed another chance.

Plus, the offseason is so far advanced that it's unlikely that anyone else will pick him up - especially after this latest fiasco. So, he won't be not-breaking the record in anyone else's uniform (and he won't be breaking it either way).

Anyway, like I said, this is yet another chance for the Giants to relinquish their position as the moral nadir and laughing stock of the sports world. Take it.

by dodgerfan on Jan 11, 2007 4:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Another Shameful Turn
Magowan doesn't have to care about what fans of other teams think.  He only has to care about Giants fans.

Plus, it would be great for the Dodgers if Bonds isn't in the Giants' lineup, wouldn't it?  No thanks.

And Aurilia?  I'll take him over Juan Pierre for sure.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Another Shameful Turn
Plus, it would be great for the Dodgers if Bonds isn't in the Giants' lineup, wouldn't it?

If it's good for the Dodgers, it's bad for baseball.

by tobias on Jan 11, 2007 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Another Shameful Turn
True. And it's a sad, sad thing that Giants fans want this man representing them and their city. He has, once again, shown who he is: a cheater and a liar. If he breaks Aaron's record, it will be a huge tragedy for baseball.

Also: Pedro Feliz.

by dodgerfan on Jan 11, 2007 7:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Another Shameful Turn
Man, stfu. I don't see how any of this makes him any different than 20 of the 25 players on your active roster at any given time. That's not a defense, but calling him a cheater and a liar and singling him out as the one person to be kicked out of the league or conveniently dropped from a team is stupid. Saying, "Bonds should be released for breaking the rules and because I don't like him," is a reasonable step away from saying "Hey, let's DFA everybody and ban them to boot because I don't know who did what and even though I reeeeaally like some of them we really have to get rid of this problem."

It can't be "Barry goes and everybody else stays because I like everybody else and he's a jerk." I'm not calling you an idiot because you're a Dodger fan. Worse things have happened. I'm calling you an idiot because you basically just said that thing I just put in quotes.

And if he breaks Aaron's record, you're still an idiot.

Phew, I'm satisfied. Now I can go another two months without responding to a single sickening, even-I-recognize-is-intentionally-meant-to-make-me-respond-like-an-idiot word you say.

So who's more the idiot, the idiot or the guy who falls for the idiot's intentional hook? In this case, you.

(ok, so the insulting cracks at the end were just fun, give me a break)

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 8:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Another Shameful Turn
Oh, I don't know. I thought the "moral nadir and laughingstock of the sports world" bit was nicely said. If anything I got to look up the word nair, and its definitely something I'll use from here on out.

by hammystyle on Jan 12, 2007 9:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
LF  Roberts
CF  Winn
RF  Drew
4th OF  Linden

Thank you Mr Bonds.  Your recliner can be claimed at will call.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Drew?
The one who signed with the Red Sox?
I've grown up a lot since before dinner, when we last talked.

by groug on Jan 11, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did the Red Sox FINALLY sign him?
when?  Heard they were working on the contract wording.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
Oh yeah, because Drew is so, so valuable. Bondsian, in fact.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
could be very comparable offensively.  Defense would favor Drew. Throwing arm edge to Drew.  Would guess clubhouse chemistry would also favor Drew.  Now McCoven faithful might favor the older fella.

by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
I think using the phrase "Club House Chemistry" and JD Drew in the same sentence lost you any credibility ;)

by xanthan on Jan 11, 2007 7:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
I hate hate hate JD Drew, and not just because he was a Dodger.  Not just because he skipped out on the team that drafted him (the Phillies) because they didn't offer him a zillion dollars.  Not just because he has a ton of talent, and uses just enough of it to get big contracts.  Not just because he's the type of guy who just compiles numbers (wanna bet he tried really hard to hit that 100RBI mark for the first time ever last year?).  I've heard he's not exactly cookies and cream in the clubhouse either.

By the way, Bonds publicly apologized to Sweeney for mentioning his name, and denied Sweeney's involvement in anything related to this drug test.

by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
No! Not the recliner!

Jeez.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 6:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Does anyone know what over-the-counter medication has amphetamines?  (I think I heard Sudafed once?)  

And assuming that the positive test was for a OTC medication, is that even appealable?  In other words, are MLB guidelines such that you are deemed to have a positive test even if the amphetamines came from a legal source?

by War on Jan 11, 2007 4:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Banned is banned, unless you have an exemption (as with Ritalin for ADHD, for example).

Sudafed doesn't have amphetamines.  It just has some sort of amphetamine precursors.  Whether that would cause a positive test, I don't know, but it wouldn't matter.  Like I said, banned is banned.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 4:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sending a case of this to the Giants clubhouse...

Yes, Steven Segal has his own energy drink. And YES, they are really awful.

by xanthan on Jan 11, 2007 5:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm holding out for Jean-Claude Van Damme's
Just imagine...an energy drink that lets you do the splits in midair.
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Schnapps
Exactly what part of Asia will this miracle drink allow me to experience?
LicenseToPills: barry bonds says words, they have nothing to do with his thoughts, they are just subjects and predicates in his mental kingdom

by Natto on Jan 11, 2007 8:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh Schnapps
The vending machines every 6.3 feet in Tokyo, for one.

by tk on Jan 11, 2007 8:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh Schnapps
I don't live in Tokyo, but I haven't seen that in any of the 15000 vending machines I see every day to and from school.

by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh Schnapps
Do they still sell beer in vending machines in Japan?
Omar don't scare.

by SF Pete on Jan 11, 2007 8:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh Schnapps
Yes, they do.  There's a sign on the vending machine that says, basically "if you're under 20, buying alcohol is illegal, and the people in the neighborhood are watching!"  I kid you not.  Same with the cigarette vending machines.

by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I need to clear something up first, and then I have a question.  First, to set the record straight: an argument was made that taking amphetamines was not as bad as, say, taking meth or, I think we would all agree, taking performance-enhancing steroids.  The counterargument was this: "I just love it, love it, love it when we get to pick and choose the laws we want to enforce or compare."  This counter-argument misses the entire point: laws ARE comparable.  That's why there are three degrees of murder, manslaughter, assault, etc.; and that's why the penalties for taking steroids are at least twice as tough as the penalties for taking amphetamines.  If the crimes are of differen magnitudes in the eyes of the lawmakers, why should we not fall in line?  Please stop the showy indignation.

Now, a question: it seems to me that the Bonds arguments I have with people go in a circle.  I'll say "there is no conclusive evidence of what steroids can do for a hitter, particularly vis-a-vis what they can do for a pitcher."  My interlocutor will say "But they were illegal!" To which I respond "yes, in the eyes of the U.S. government, but not explicitly in the eyes of MLB.  To MLB, taking steroids was no different from all the players (including HOFers) who blew coke throughout the 1980s."  And the response to this line of reasoning is, of course, "but using steroids is cheating!"  If there is one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.  Even so, I'd like to know which of these two issues--the legality or the suspicion cast on statistics and the levelness of the playing field--is the central issue here.  I don't discount that there are very valid and damning points to make in the case against Barry, but most of the arguments I hear from the people carrying the nooses seem to be less focused and specific arguments, and more mountains of various circumstantial bits of evidence that all amount to an unignorable pile of suspect maybes.  

One totally unrelated point, if'n I've managed to keep anyone's attention this far (which I doubt): was anyone else surprised (as hell) by Bonds' public statement today?  Honestly, the LAST person I would expect to make a smart PR move/generous mea culpa (or at least non sua culpa) like this is Barry, and I have to say that my general dislike of the man parted just long enough to admit that today's statement was a surprising touch of class.  Way to go, BB!

by candymanhackman on Jan 11, 2007 8:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Non sua culpa
I think I can say without fear of contradiction that that's the first instance of the use of 'non sua culpa' in a sports blog, and maybe any blog.

Good post, Candyman.  I was pleasantly surprised by Bonds's unequivocal and prompt statement today. Good for him & good for the fabled "clubhouse."

As to your question of which is the big issue, supposed sanctity of stats vs. levelness of playing field (which are actually two ways of making the same point), I think it falls into predictable patterns of human decisionmaking. People already BELIEVE whatever they believe due to a variety of factors, chiefly life experience and attitudes. (I'm a trial/jury consultant, and I tell my clients that their jurors already decided their case around the age of 16, barring any life-altering experiences.) Thus, as I said above, people decide whatever they decide, THEN invent reasons to justify cerebrally what they decided viscerally.  We all do it.

So the 2 (or more) sides on BB issues (and Iraq, and Jack Abramoff scandal, and alleged media bias, and the designated hitter rule, and whether Susan Sontag's stuff was overwritten crap) could be reliably predicted by looking at a person's life experiences + attitudes.  That becomes a subtle art when picking a jury-- for example, a rule-driven minutiae-oriented person might be great for the prosecution of a Wall Street accountant charged with doctoring books, but might be bad for the prosecution in a drug case in which the agents cut corners.  So that person isn't reliably pro-prosecution, but could be predicted to follow certain paths.

We don't see facts as they are... we see facts as WE are.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 10:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His apology????
C'mon.  I would bet the farm Sweeney's agent (Axelrod) called Bonds' agent (Borris) and read him the riot act.  Axelrod probably told Borris better get this straight and Borris came up with this letter.

by wilriv21 on Jan 12, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whats the matter?
Somebody's feelings get hurt? For being called on being a chronically stupid Bonds basher?

Tsk. Tsk. :D  

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Jan 12, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
I don't care if he did, didn't or dreamed about doing it, and I'm tired of the discussion. I'm tired of the implications, rumors, innuendos, leaked information, and moral high horses. Perhaps, Bonds will be indicted, go straight to the slammer in an orange and black jumpsuit, or better yet, a fiery hell. It's not even entertaining anymore.  

What is entertaining, is Grant's post.  That was hilarious. I managed to scare my co-workers with my guffaws, especially with that ecstasy shit. I popped some a little while ago and it started to hit before I was halfway through the post. I never knew I could guffaw. Did I ever tell you how much I love you guys?  I'm going to go dance now.  

Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. - Homer Simpson

by attinger on Jan 11, 2007 9:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Are leaks really so bad???
What would we do without these leaks to the press?
  1. They are often fascinating, even when misleading.
  2. They give us insight where we had none.
  3. They engender heated conversation, and an exchange of viewpoints and ideas.
  4. Life would be dull without them.
  5. God Bless the Squealers.

by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is a Moggeee joke, right?
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2007 8:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Are leaks really so bad???
It's hard to generalize. Some leaks are essential to saving lives and thwarting illegal or dangerous activity by powerful forces in society. We throw reporters who bring them to us and then protect sources in jail at our peril. Other leaks simply feed the maw of salacious entertainment or, worse, unfairly malign innocent people. Sometimes it's hard to tell them apart without the benefit of hindsight.

by NearestNorwich on Jan 12, 2007 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Are leaks really so bad???
I'm definitely with the Mojo Priest on this one.  I think it's a bit absurd for people to get upset about the sources of information, confidential or not.  I am a firm believer in the freedom of information and don't believe that any testimony, drug tests, records of misappropriated funds,  presidential recordings, or evidence of aliens should ever be kept from the public.

To cite the nature of the information or the source is simply blind.  He tested positive for amphetamines or some analogue.  He said that may have used steroids unwittingly.  Now I am a HUGE Giants fan, have loved watching Barry become the greatest player of era, and don't really care if players use PEDs, but to damn the messenger (e.g. Fainaru-Wadam etc.) is ridiculous.  I don't care where the info came from.  Stop preventing people from getting the facts.

If we all are working from the same set of information, then we will have a 'level playing field'.

Chulk angry! CHULK SMASH!!

by CystedTwister on Jan 12, 2007 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why leaks are good news to guys like us
Would it not be great, JUST GREAT, to get the entire list of players who flunked an amphetamines test last year?

Man, I'd read that thing. I'd memorize it. I'd recite it. And then, after a while, I'd want more and juicier lists.

The Public (who I represent, for a fee) is voracious for this kind of thing, and wants to know!

Perhaps Mark Sweeney is on that amphetamines-flunk list.

And just to complicate things, maybe Mike Sweeney is too.

by Moggeee on Jan 12, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Are leaks really so bad???
Would you still feel the same way if it was your drug test, your testimony, your supposedly removed-from-the-record drunk driving conviction, or your tapped phone calls? Are you taking the position that nobody has any right to any expectation of privacy whatsoever?
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Jan 12, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We live in a free, but leaky society
I think you're asking Twister, but I'll answer.

Hell, this is baseball, fer crissakes. Give me all the dirty laundry there is. I can take it, even if it knocks down my heroes -- and Barry Bonds is one of my heroes.

The players -- boo hoo to the millionaires -- will just have to accept that fans of the game are interested enough in them to seek this kind of information.

Is teflon-coated Barry Bonds really harmed by all this? Not a chance! What's he gonna do? Be angry? Threaten to retire? Not talk to the press? Call them names?

Oh, that'll be something new.

If you're of a mind to hide the transgressions and evils of society because they are sometimes cloaked in secrecy and legalities, then a good place to live is the old Soviet Union.

Moreover, if you don't want your DUI or your sexual transgressions or your public malfeasance leaked, my opinion is don't commit such acts in the first place.

The system leaks. It's not foolproof. Squealers squeal for fun, profit, revenge, and even -- sometimes -- for noble reasons.

The Daniel Ellsbergs of the world -- the Whistle Blowers and the leak specialists -- can do a lot of good, and the harm they cause is often blown out of proportion -- usually by those on the hotseat.

by Moggeee on Jan 12, 2007 7:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We live in a free, but leaky society
What if, instead of a DUI, it's your medical records that say you have an inherited condition?  Or that you contracted a disease via a blood transfusion?  Kinda hard to tell someone "don't do that in the first place".

Privacy is privacy for everyone.  I want my private life to stay private, and I'm willing to accept less juicy leaks about ballplayers and celebrities to keep it that way.

by hometownboy on Jan 12, 2007 7:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Alas, you make the salient point.
In our vast, open, leaky, and competitive information delivery system, deeply personal medical secrets have often been speculated upon, and commonly make the headlines.

The great number of celebrity-like figures over the last 25 years whose AIDS condition has been "outed" constitutes a large gray area, and perhaps your best case in point.

Responsible journalism dictates great care be exercised here, but many media editors tread this zone with impunity.

by Moggeee on Jan 13, 2007 1:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
ya know... I'm sitting here reading all the "facts that all can be true" nonsense, and I see none of this mentioned:
  1.  Bonds is black, and outspoken about it, and not a "good negro" - are we really so far away from 1974? Does anyone remember what Aaron went through? Are we so naive that Bonds isn't getting his own share of death threats? I saw in another blog about "Bonds is probably an egocentric jerk like most famous people", and all we hear this week is what nice guys Gwynn and Ripken are (by the way, my understanding is that Ripken was a prick in the clubhouse). Should we have a "other people like them personally stat in the usual three tiered stats? My neighbor's a really nice guy.. does that make him the 523rd best ballplayer of all time?
  2. MLB would rather throw itself on a funeral pyre than open the door to the whole "everyone has used drugs forever" argument - I DO think this is legitimate point, if only that Bonds is being made the poster child to deflect this being out in the open - then, we're talking about real damage - better to have a scapegoat. Good god, I know he's not such a popular guy anyway, but do they really want chapter and verse about how much coke Joe Morgan used? As far as amphetamines, lets look at how many millions of people use them daily in this country, and most of all, let's look at that free coffee that you get at work.  I'm sure that's a tradition because we all love the soothing aroma. This whole topic is reeking with denial.
  3. the prosecution is obviously getting desparate, or MLB is, or Sabean is sick and tired of the media circus (I sure wouldn't sign Bonds at anything but an extremely incentive laden contract). Desparate measures. Um, has anyone without an agenda actually said that Bonds implicated Sweeney? Has Sweeney's name come up from anything but "sources"? Has the player's union said "Bonds tested positive and named Sweeney"? Has Sweeney or Bonds said this? And do we really think that Bonds would be so stupid, if he was already busted, to make up such a weird and lame excuse? The man may be a pompous self-righteous egotist, but I really don't think he's that dumb.
  4. This is not towards you guys, but do you think that anyone has actually read the "Baseball Prospectus" type research on the effects of steroids? I don't care how many steroids you give me, I couldn't make a Rookie league team, now or ever - it just isn't like that, at best, it's marginal.
  5. For god sake, read some Bill James and get 100 reasons why home runs exploded in the late 90s and early 00s - change in equipment, stadiums amd style of play.
This whole thing is silly - yeah, maybe Bonds is an ass - but does this mean anything other than he's an easy target? The media and MLB can crucify him and then we can all get back to counting our fortunes and business as usual.

End of rant.

walking the streets, trying to find the polo grounds, not %#%$^% SBC park

by Christy Mathewson on Jan 13, 2007 8:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tired of this....
Wow, not sure I understood your points, but be certain that grown men put drugs into their bodies to increase their performance on the baseball field thus making them hugh sums of money and winning them fame and hot chicks.
With Barry back, what could go wrong?

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Jan 13, 2007 5:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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