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Start Over. Seriously.

To-do List:

  1. Go back to the drawing board
  2. Douse said drawing board in gasoline
  3. Set the gasoline-soaked drawing board aflame
  4. Get yourself and your family to safety and wait
  5. Vacuum up the ashes of the cursed drawing board
  6. Go to Target and get a new frickin' drawing board!
I'm just one of the thousands of pissed off and disappointed Giants fans right now.  

I'm no baseball genius, but it's beyond obvious that the organization is fundamentally flawed.  So here is a collection of my thoughts while watching the slow motion trainwreck that was the 2006 season.

Follow me to the dark side...

Star-divide

The team over that last several seasons has been a leaky boat.  Brian Sabean has been tasked not with building a winning team, but with going out and finding patches for the leaks.  This is because the entire team is built around Bonds as the foundation.  With Bonds at the center, re-envisioning a winning strategy and building it from scratch has been impossible.

Thus Bonds has been a blessing and a curse.  As a fan of the game, I've truly appreciated watching him up close over these years, but as a fan of the Giants, I believe he's been a major obstacle to ultimate success.

The Giants have a "Sacred Cow" problem.  I think everyone involved with the current failed state of the Giants team should be on the hot seat.  This is one of the things that most pisses me off about the Giants.  It seems like noone's ass is on the line for this dismal, under-performing season.  Felipe? He's got to go.  Seriously.  How is that not completely obvious to anyone watching this season?  I know people argue the manager doesn't really have much affect on the performance of the team on the field, blah blah blah.   Maybe, but hey, tough.  Bottom line is Felipe was given a decent team (not great, but decent) to work with and their going to finish below .500.  No excuse.  For most of the season, with the exception of only a few scattered weeks here and there, the team had no passion, no spark.  Vizquel, bless his soul, was the only one with any spark.

I've only once heard anyone mention the following on a blog or on KNBR and they got lambasted for it, so maybe I'm completely off base, but why oh why is there noone questioning Rhighetti's effectiveness?  I know the Giants statistically had one of the better starting rotations in the league this year, so it might currently seem like a stretch, but over many season's it just seems like pitchers come to the Giants and proceed to suck (Ponson, Morris, Moss, Benitez ....) or they leave the Giants only to improve immediately (Nathan, Hermanson ...)  I realize this is a woefully incomplete analysis and Russ Ortiz is a glaring example of the opposite dynamic, but it's just a feeling I've had with Rhighetti over several years.  Part of it could be watching the A's across the bay get, what seems to me like, SO much more out of their staff consistently.

Joe Lefevreverevervre.  Can someone tell me when was the last time the Giants threw fewer pitches in the game than the opposition?  This started bothering me months ago and I've been paying attention since then and I'll be damned if the Giants don't have about the worst plate discipline of any team out there.  Fine, if you're Moises and you've made a long, great career of jumping on the first pitch, ok, you're off the hook, but as a team, it's just pathetic how quickly the Giants make outs.  Look at the A's philosophy of drawing pitches.  It works.  The more pitches you see, statistically the more mistakes you'll see and the more walks you'll draw.  I just looked it up, the Giants are 18th in the majors in walks.  The A's are 3rd.

I could go on, but I say BLOW IT UP!  The sooner we start fresh the better, in my opinion.  If that means watching Barry DH for the Angels next year, I'm OK with that.  I'm not convinced Sabean is the GM to be able to build a winning strategy from scratch.  All he's been with the Giants, and to be fair, all he's had the opportunity to be, is a leaky boat-patcher.   He's still surviving on credit for deals he made long ago.  I don't think he's been effective for a while now.  No Sacred Cows!

Flame away.  -Roadie  

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Righetti has been questioned on this site and on others.  Heck, earlier today someone put up a diary questioning Righetti.

I'm not sure two seasons of 75 wins calls for the scorched earth policy, but I'm sure you'll see a lot of turnover in the offseason.

by Skaldheim on Sep 22, 2006 11:00 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
>I'm sure you'll see a lot of turnover in the offseason.

You've seen it all season on the pitching side. The rotation has two rookies and a 24-yr-old (Lowry). The best bullpenners this year have been Correia and Hennessey, with some promising work from B. Wilson.

I'm cautiously encouraged by the rebuild that's already started on the pitching side. Now for the positionals...

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Sep 22, 2006 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Absolutely agreed.  The rebuild actually started in '05, when youth came to the rescue of the bullpen.  I don't think you'll see much change in the pitching staff this offseason, unless Sabean can find takers for Morris or Benitez.

The position players, manager and coaching staff are all serious candidates for turnover, though.  I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of that group changed in the offseason.  

by Skaldheim on Sep 22, 2006 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm really encouraged
by the pitching rebuild, and I actually am excited to see what Sabes does this offseason and in the future.  This is the guy that was scouting director for the Yankees during the only time in the Steinbrenner era when they relied upon homegrown talent.

I guess what I'm saying is that I trust Sabean to be able to shift gears effectively.  I still reserve the right to criticize, though.

Ha Ha! Armando's the new Meg!

by The Balls of Summer on Sep 22, 2006 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Surprisingly, back to back losing seasons is fairly rare in SF history. 3 straight (depending on next year) would qualify as one of the worst stretches in SF history.

by Roger on Sep 22, 2006 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah...
building around the greatest offensive player in modern baseball history has been the millstone around Sabean's neck for a long time.
Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Sep 22, 2006 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: yeah...
That's the key.. "Building around"

Our formula has been: one superstar surrounded by the best we could find/afford at the time.  

Is there another team in recent memory with our same formula that has had real success?  The Yankees and Red Sox have the money, so they don't count, but the White Sox?, the Marlins?, the '01 Diamondbacks?

With Bonds' huge salary, the remaining payroll means compromising somewhere and lately it's been age.  We want experience proven players surrounding Bonds for our "win now" push, but we can't afford experience, proven ability and youth, so we go out and get old players.  

Sometimes it works (Vizquel), sometimes not so much (Finley)

As ironic as it seems, in my opinion Bonds is the reason why our options have been so limited.  

That and the org's inability to develop strong homegrown position players.

And now, of course, our "Formula" is 42 years old with a bum elbow and bad knees.

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
Yeah, without Bonds we could have:

2 of Matt Morris or Benitez
3 of Edgardo Alfonzo / Steve Finley

Sabean's problem is simply that he wants to run his team like the Yankees on 40% of the payroll.  It's a fact that older guys are paid more.  The only way to get cheap, good players is to have young ones.  Now, with 90-odd M in payroll, you don't have to go all Oakland on the league, but you better have SOMETHING that's cheap.

The most ironic thing is that for a "open negiotiated contract" (i.e. FA) Bonds has probably been the best value over 13 years  (even though he hsa fallen short in the last 2)

by zenbitz on Sep 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...

I agree when you look at the individual output Bonds is worth the money, but having Bonds does affect the makeup of the rest of the team and having Bonds hasn't led to a World Series championship.  

Some say the Giants would have had a really great shot at winning in 2002, if there had been a World Series that year.

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
"Not having Bonds" hasn't led to a WS championship either, at least not for the Pirates or 21 other teams that have spent the last 13 years employing a not-Bonds strategy.

Statistically, far more teams have failed to win championships without Bonds during that time than have won championships without Bonds. Think about that!

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Sep 22, 2006 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
So, if you spend $20M wisely, and $70M foolishly, the reason you fail is because of the $20M?

by zenbitz on Sep 22, 2006 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
That logic is hard to argue with. You got me there.  I can't seriously argue that Bonds is the root of the Giants problems.

But with Bonds comes this perpetual "win now" mandate.  That means our focus is constantly short-term.  That is a limitation on how decisions are made, I think.

I heard a recent interview with Ned Coletti and he was talking about the "dual challenges" the Dodgers faced going into this year.  They wanted to win now, but they also needed to be building fo the future as well.

Time will tell if they are successful with that, but I heard him say that and thought to myself that I don't see Sabean thinking the same way.  

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
I think the "win now" mandate is a bit of a fallacy.  Obviously, the team has had a lot invested in Bonds and has wanted to take advantage of his production by trying to field primarily veterans around him as opposed to testing unproven youngsters.  (Look at Niekro as an example of the downside of unproven youngsters.)

Going with older players has not been the problem; Bonds, Durham, Viquel and Alou have held up their end of the bargain.  Matheny gets an incomplete and Finley (if used properly) would not be the worst 4th outfielder ever.

The "younger" guys at 3B, 1B and CF (Winn) have been a far greater drag on this team's performance.

Alou's time on the DL has been the only downside to this year's crop of oldies, but part of that was offset by Bonds playing time, which probably exceeded everyone's expectations.

Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
There you go again laying waste to my argument, dangit.  I'll go slink back under my rock.  

I'm just frustrated.  Truth be told, I'm jealous as heck of the A's success.  If I were Sabean, I think I'd be embarassed.  Or teams like the Marlins, who, during our 13 years of Bonds, have:

  1. come into being
  2. won the WS
  3. started over
  4. won another WS
  5. started over and are currently .5 game ahead of the $90M Giants.
why!!!???

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

like you said: "No sacred cows"
Marlins kept to their budget and traded talened players and got cheaper talented players in return.  They have developed position players to fill-in nicely for the vets they traded or let go thru FA.  Young solid inexpensive pitching keys their surge

by wilriv21 on Sep 22, 2006 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: like you said: "No sacred cows"
> Young solid inexpensive pitching keys their surge

Which is why I'm cautiously encouraged by the Giants. Their young pitching may at least keep the team decent while it develops and/or restocks the offense.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Sep 22, 2006 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: like you said: "No sacred cows"
Yes, but what the Marlins have perfected is trading a commodity and receiving multiple commodities   ie  Beckett/Lowell for Ramirez/Sanchez.   I would guess this winter the Marlins will trade yet another pitcher, Dontelle Willis, and get a boatload of inexpensive talent in return.  Meanwhile the Giants fans clamor keep Lowry or re-sign Schmidt.  Think Marlins are ahead of the curve - or at least 2 World Series rings would tend me to believe.

by wilriv21 on Sep 22, 2006 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
Roadie,
I'm certainly not trying to chase you away to under a rock.  I thik you're asking good questions, but jumping to conclusions.

Hanging out here has made me more of a critical thinker.  I don't think baseball can be explained purely by stats, but they often help to tell you whether what your gut tells you is true...sometimes it's not.

As to your other question about why teams like the Marlins have won two WS, that's the beauty of the game and why they play the games.  There are still a lot of things left to chance.  I think a good GM gives his team the best chance to win he/she can, but there's still the unknown that makes the game interesting.  Fortunes can turn on something as simple as a dorky fan interferring with a player or a gold glove right-fielder dropping an easy fly ball.

As an aside, I agree with the points from Kenshin and others about Bonds being a bargain throughout most of his career.  I find it ironic that if he'll likely be the best bargain ever (production + gate receipts) in his probable final year if they can get him for around $8 million.

Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
I know Bonds has been a relative bargain just as I know that I'm not alone in saying I'd rather have a WS championship than Home Run records etc.

I know having Bonds and Winning a WS are not necessarily mutually exclusive circumstances.  

My fumbling logic is probably an attempt to figure out why it seems like they are mutually exclusive.

It's just frustrating seeing several other teams running circles around us with far, far less expensive players.

The Status Quo ain't workin'

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Moises
Alou's time on the DL has been the only downside to this year's crop of oldies

Arguably even more of a problem has been Alou's time not on the DL but not available. There have been over 20 games this season where he couldn't play due to some nagging problem - sometimes for a week at a time - but they didn't put him on the DL. That means 20 games the Giants played with only 4 position players on the bench.

I would tend to group Durham with the "prime time" group (Winn, Feliz, Hillenbrand). Admittedly a subjective grouping, but he's closer in age to Winn than he is to Vizquel. The only starter I would consider "young" this season was Niekro. Obviously he didn't get it done, but we can't generalize much about the young guys based on only one example.

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Sep 22, 2006 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Moises
E-me,
Excellent point about Alou and the "little" injuries.

Notice I called the guys "younger" as opposed to "young".  Even Niekro at 27 isn't exactly a baby.  Durham might not be as old as Bonds/Alous/Finley/Viz, but I guess I think of him as older because he's got 11 years in the league and is probbaly as closer to the end than guys like Winn and Hillenbrand.

Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

having...
the best player in baseball is never ever a problem.  The Giants failed for a number of reasons: namely bad drafts andbad contracts to other players not named Bonds.  The whole "building around" myth is one of the most annoying ones out there.   Until last season we had Bonds at a discount relative to his production.

Pointing out 3 examples and discounting others is completely worthless as well, especially since your examples too the contrary have almost nothing in common..  Lest we forget, the Giants were 6 outs from winning the world series.  I think the build around Bonds concept worked pretty well.

I'm done.  Good luck finding a bunch of young good players to take the money we save on Bonds.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Sep 22, 2006 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: yeah...
'93-'96 (Bonds, Matty):
2 second place finishes
2 fourth place finishes

'97-'02 (Bonds, Jeff Moustache):
2 first place finishes
4 second place finishes
1 NL championship

'03-now (Bonds, scrubs)
1 first place
1 second place
1 third place (without Bonds in the lineup)

by lunaticfridge on Sep 22, 2006 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

But that misstates the argument
Of course it's not a mistake to build around the greatest player in history (as I believe Barry is).  But that's not the issue.

Will it ever be a winning strategy to commit 20% of payroll to one guy on a 25-man payroll? (actually more than 25, but let's keep it simple.)  4% of the personnel getting 20% of the kitty?

How can you reliably get the rest of the quality players you need in order to win a World Series (assuming that's the real goal; it happens to be mine).  Yes, 2002 should have turned out differently, and yes, we have had some good teams in the last several years-- but even those had big holes we couldn't overcome.

We haven't been developing younger talent, either, so it's hard to use the word "building."

In fact, I would say that Sabean's approach has NOT been building around Barry... it's been casting around Barry.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends (where "breach" = another meaningless October.)

by Mayor of 311 on Sep 22, 2006 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Your list of pitchers as examples of why Rhighetti is flawed.  For example, if you're going to imply that Hermanson only got better because he was no longer a Giant, than you might as well say he wouldn't have hurt his back if he was no longer a Giant.  You ignore that his performance with SF was pretty much the same as his previous eight years (mid 4 ERA).  Players get better, players get worse.  These samples don't show a trend.
Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 11:21 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Do you think Righetti is a good major-league pitching coach?  Do you see consistently high performance from the staff under Righetti?

I'm honestly not trying to be snotty or anything, I fully admit there's a lot I don't know, so I'm just curious.  Do you think Righetti had earned the right to not be on the hot seat?

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
I'd say I'd need to see evidence that he makes pitchers worse or that they get better after they leave.

As the "statheads" here will tell you, a complete analysis of "before and after" pitcher stats would need to be done, before we can Rhighetti is to blame.  Hermanson is particular was not a good example.  He had one good, albeit incomplete year after he left here.  The evidence suggests that the improvement was more of an outlier than anything that could be attributed to Rags' shortcomings.  Other than Nathan, I can't think of pitchers who got better after leaving Rhighetti's tutledge.

Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
And for a counterexample, Schmidt got a whole lot better under Righetti. Is that because of Rags or Schmidt himself? I don't know.

As I've said before, I'm not a stathead. But I think that we tend to remember things that reinforce our biases, whether good or bad. The good thing about statistical analysis is it forces you to look at all the data rather than relying on selective memory of particular performances.

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Sep 22, 2006 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
I agree with this and I admit I don't have the thorough statistical analysis to back-up my gut feeling, but what worries me is that "Rags" is a beloved figure to the Giants and that can often be a problem in objective job performance.

I'm so ready for a whole new look for the team even if it means some years with a true contending team.

To me, having a sub-par team playing its heart out is better than having a decent team that underperforms, which is what is so aggravating about the 2006 Giants.

by Roadie on Sep 22, 2006 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hold it.
Logically, it is up the PROponent of an argument to carry the burden of proof.  The argument/proposition would be that Righetti's any good as a pitching coach, not that he's bad.  Roadie is perfectly correct in asking: what's the evidence that Righetti is any good?  I wonder that myself.

I would not, though, say that he's BAD without some kind of an argument to back it up.  I WOULD say that those who say he's GOOD have not met their burden of proof.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends (where "breach" = another meaningless October.)

by Mayor of 311 on Sep 22, 2006 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Hold it.
I'm not saying he's good. I'm saying you can't prove he's bad by cherrypicking a few examples of pitchers who got worse under his watch, or better when they left.

So if nobody's trying to argue that he's bad OR good, should we end this line of discussion?

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Sep 22, 2006 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes Time to Start Over
throw out the old playbook of finding vets to surround or compliment Bonds.  That era is over.  Thank you Bonds.  Grab your watch on the way out.

Start the housecleaning with a new organizational philosophy of procuring talent globally.  Heck I would even go as far to say go find some 16 yr old talent.  Don't be afraid to negogiate with Boras (as long as Boras demands are reasonable).  Playing home grown talent is ok, please look at Linden, Lewis and Frandsen and give them an opportunity.  Don't spend all $$$ on FAs.  Don't be afraid to make trades but please get youthful talented players in return.  No they do not have to be MLB players but MLB ready talents - Teahen, LaRoche, Loney, Fields etc

Keep F. Alou around as consultant and hire a steady solid mangager who can teach young players how to play the game correctly and handle themselves properly.

I know there are far too many positions to fill thru FA and trades so continue to keep ears open and continue to procure talent throughout the season.  Thru trades, promotions and waiver wire I'm sure the opening day roster for 2007 will be upgraded throughout the season.

by wilriv21 on Sep 22, 2006 12:29 PM PDT reply actions  

18th in walks?
imagine where we'd be without Bonds
2002? I'm over it.

by wjackalope on Sep 22, 2006 3:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Boof Bonser is stepping up at the right time: He's 3-0 with a 2.42 ERA in September.

Worst. Trade. Ever.

Humm Baby!

by Kid Fresh on Sep 22, 2006 4:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
LAAALAAALAAAICANTHEARYOUICANTHEARYOUICANTHEARYOU
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Sep 22, 2006 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Trade? What trade?
scratches his cranial scar
When Benitez steps on the mound, it's "Bye bye, baby!"

by Natto on Sep 22, 2006 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Best trade ever:  Armando Rios and Ryan Vogelsong sent for Jason Schmidt and John Vander Wal.

Not even the worse trade ever in Giants baseball history:

WORSE:  Gaylord Perry and Frank Duffy for Sam McDowell

WORSE:  George Foster for Frank Duffy and Vern Geishert

WORSE:  Orlando Cepeda for Ray Sadecki

Worser Trades in baseball history:

Babe Ruth for $125,000 and $300,000 loan.  

Lou Brock, Jack Spring, Paul Toth for Ernie Broglio, Bobby Shantz, and Doug Clemens.

Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen.  

Curt Schilling, Steve Finley, and Pete Harnisch for Glenn Davis.

I'm sure there are more...

Oy, back to the sig that was working better: Go Giants: Winn it all with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Sep 22, 2006 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
I posted a comment about the Righetti question on another diary so I'll follow the same format here.

Ponson:  did not suck when he got here, he pitched about as well as he did when he was with the Orioles.  And he pitched a heck of a lot worse after leaving here than he had pitched while here.  I think that's what's called pissing away $21M.

Morris:  until his recent stretch of poor pitching, where I think it's pretty obvious that he's gassed, he was pitching as well as he was in 2005, better by other measures (like PQS).  He's had a bad luck year, look at his FIP, look at his PQS.

Moss:  One year wonder.  He had that one good year at Atlanta when nothing much went wrong then crashed when with us.  And he actually pitched well for us for a while there in the middle of his time with us too.  Won't be the first player to ever have one good year then disappear, won't be the last.

Benitez:  the only way you can lay Benitez's problems at Righetti's feet is if you believe that Righetti somehow caused Benitez' tendons to snap like they did.  Else I don't see how you can.

Nathan:  where did he immediately improve after leaving us?  Here's most of his stat line for 2003 (SF) and 2004( Minn), except for ER, which varies greatly when you are a reliever and depending on your following relievers :

Team - GP - IP - H - HR - BB - K - WHIP - BAA
2003 - 78 - 79 - 51 - 7 - 33 - 83 - 1.06 - .186
2004 - 73 - 72 - 48 - 3 - 23 - 89 - 0.98 - .187

Damn near identical.  Certainly closer than I would have guessed, but I remembered that Nathan had a great year before he left us so I knew that he didn't quite have the breakout year that you pictured.  

Hermanson:  I won't deny that he got better after he left the Giants but do you even know his career arc?  His career basically did not have a pulse when the Giants got him, the Giants gave him his third jolt to restart his career, which was close to ending.  He could not even stay with St. Louis, which was desperately looking for pitchers (the question is, for $500, when does a team have Brett Tomko on their pitching staff), so much so that they kept Brett and dumped Dustin.  He was 4 years removed from when he was a good starting pitcher and still had not learned how to become a reliever nor accepted being a reliever when he came to the Giants - he actually still wanted to start while with the Giants - when the Giants out of deperation put him in as closer.  

The reason he got so good after leaving here was because he finally made the mental adjustment, finally accepted that he was a reliever.  Tim Worrell had the same problem, he always insisted that he was a starter, refused to think of himself as a reliever and he said in an interview that once he finally accepted that, that's when he started doing well as a reliever.

As I noted also in the other thread, I don't know exactly how to judge a pitching coach, but based on the examples given, I would not indict Righetti either.

As far as blowing up the team, sure, you can shout Florida Marlins until you are blue in the face, but then I would then put down my full-house:  Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Montreal, Colorado, and Atlanta.  The first four I think people will understand why they are there, they blew up their teams for the sake of blowing them up, and they haven't recovered since then.  Do you really want to risk being a Pittsburgh?

Why did I put Atlanta on the list?  Because their superior run of division titles came at a big cost:  they went through 6 years of unmitigated hell and last place finishes beforehand, and that doesn't even count Ted Turner as owner in the equation (he once took over as manager for one game until he learned that it was against the rules of the game).  Sure, now in hindsight, you can say that it built up the team they had all those years, but during those 6 years, I don't think there were many fans saying, "but yeah, just wait, we're going to dominate for over a dozen years, you wait and see."  Bobby Cox blew up the team, had them scrapping by for 6 seasons, and when his draft picks matured enough, he took over as manager.

And as my ace in the hole, how about the A's?  The first time the A's blew up their roster in 1915, it took them 7 years of last place finishes and 10 years before they reached respectibility again.  After Connie Mack blew up the team in 1933, Mack never made it to the next time the A's finishing first, and only had one first division finish (top 4) in his final 17 seasons as manager.

Then it was ANOTHER 20 seasons and two cities before the team saw first place again, with the Swinging A's in 1971.  When Charlie O. finally blew up that team after the 1976 season, besides the Billy Martin anomaly, the A's went through 12 seasons before they truly recovered to be a good team in 1988.  And after blowing up the team in 1993, the team was lousy once more until 1999 and didn't reach first until 2000, for another ugly stretch of 6 seasons.  So there is a price to pay for blowing up your team and a long wait for a return to respectibility and even more for first place.

All this goes to show that it is not all sunshine and lollipops when you just go and blow up the team, sometimes you get what you wished for, not what you wanted.  

Oy, back to the sig that was working better: Go Giants: Winn it all with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Sep 22, 2006 4:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Martin,
Helluva good post.
Putting the "Goof" in "Goofus" every day since 1964.

by Goofus on Sep 22, 2006 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Start over?
While the emotional side of my wants to blow this franchise up from time to time, the rational side of me leans toward Martin's point.  

Rags has been questioned a number of times here.  While people here will defend their points of view, most of these points of view don't lead to crazy talk.  Rags is certainly fair game.  However, I think that to determine if Rags is a positive or a negative you have to look at aggregate numbers for the pitching staff AND the aggregate numbers for individuals over the course of his tenure.  Overall, I think that he's done a pretty good job.  Remember, he's not the one signing the pitchers.  Does he have a say?  I don't know, maybe he's asked about Guy X before signing him.

To Martin's point, also remember that Cain's gotten much better this year: Evil Tomko's gotten much worse since he left the Giants.  Oh God, sorry for bringing up his name again, but seriously, if you're going to get anecdotal, you can look at Shithead, aka Tomko.  Maybe he was worse than we know, and Rags made him better?  This is why I mention the aggregate examples of individuals and the pitching staff as a whole, anecdotes can be misinterpreted.

As for the "blow-up"?  I'm envious about the Marlins, but remember that they actually had good young players to exploit and then trade for multiple quality youngsters...restocking, not one for one, but one for three or so.  They also have constructed their team around two fantastic young players (Willis and Cabrera).  They also have "gotten lucky" with Uggla, a diamond in the rough.  They also have drafted well.  They also have no expectations.

The Giants don't have anyone of Cabrera's ability and Cain's our closest equivalent to Willis.  What's more is that the Giants don't have anyone (outside Cain) to trade with value.  I mean look at the Marlins with Beckett and Delgado.  We don't have that.  This is one of the main reasons why I wanted Schmidt to go last year to a team with roadblocks at positions (e.g. Rangers for Adrian Gonzalez or Ian Kinsler or to the Blue Jays for Orlando Hudson or some combination with Vernon Wells [when he was slumping]).  This is one of the main reasons why I wanted Schmidt (and Durham) to go this year to a team with roadblocks at positions or in the playoff hunt (e.g. Rangers again, Oakland, White Sox, Tigers, Red Sox).  

The Pirates, Royals, etc?  Bad ownership and bad decisions.  For all my (our) complaints, I'll take ours.  They care, they're relatively aggressive, and they're not inept.  The main problem, which we'll see soon is that the Giants got old all at once and have to replace a lot at once with competition from a number of other teams.  This will be a hell of a problem to solve.

As for Bonds, I wouldn't be surprised if he came back, even at a lot of money.  Yeah he's old and aging before our eyes, but he's effective when he plays AND he brings people to the park.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm sure that there's a hell of a difference between the home gate receipts brought in by a Giants franchise with Bonds on the roster and one with him playing in, say, Anaheim.  

What I'd like to see is any combination of the following:  Alou x2 GONE (!!!);  Matheny kept around as a coach; Rags and the other coaches kept; Frandsen given a shot as a utility infielder; Linden given a shot at first; some relatively cheap vets signed to short term deals, especially those with "down" years last year, but a history of relative success, guys like Graffanino or Hinske; bullpen pieces (see above) with guys like Scott Williamson, JC Romero or Alan Embree; is Benny Kim still out there or is he signed (?); try to get Coco Crisp somehow (young, history of success, soon to be gone anyway, Red Sox fans think that he sucks (he doesn't) broken finger affected his production and is fixable); Bonds...pass; Soriano...pass; trade Lowry for something.

Hell, take offers for anyone, but dismiss those for Cain or Lincecum unless they involve the moon.

Rebuilding may take a couple of years, but they shouldn't collapse in the meantime ala Royals, they'll just be mediocre...which is about where they are right now.

by Kent on Sep 23, 2006 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
This thread does bring up the essence of the question.  If you do not have an unlimited amount of money, how do you go about building a championship baseball team?  

by orangeandblackattack on Sep 22, 2006 5:16 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
Start with a francise that has a decent farm system.  Spend some money.
???
World series!

by zenbitz on Sep 24, 2006 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
It would be nice to build a team that fits their own park. How can you expect to do well when you have no speed in a park that cries for speed? I don't know what's happened to their pitching, but I am happy some of the youngsters are showing promise.

And let's be real. The NL West was weak this year and the Giants with primarily a veteran team, couldn't get it done. I don't see how bringing back the same cast of characters, some who can't stay healthy and getting another year older, is going to improve this team.

by BarryR on Sep 23, 2006 8:00 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Start Over. Seriously.
I think that's a myth.  I mean, you still have to play on the road.

Maybe, maybe you can pick up a few bargians here and there because their weaknesses are masked by the home park.

by zenbitz on Sep 24, 2006 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

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