Liriano Hurt

by JakeS on Aug 8, 2006 12:02 AM PDT

Very badly it seems. Missed a start with elbow soreness, got rocked for ten hits in four innings (often the kind of line that indicates reduced velocity, though I didn't see the game). He's now out indefinitely with a left elbow injury, and one that sounds severe. Given his delivery this could be very bad news for him; left elbow injuries have derailed more promising careers.

Obviously I would not wish this on Liriano, or anybody, but from a practical standpoint it does illustrate why Sabean has such a habit towards trading pitchers. Young arms are more volatile than anything else in baseball.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Liriano Hurt

You know, I had just made piece with the deal. A lot probably had to do with my being in favor of the deal as it happened, but I watched Lirano a couple of weeks ago and couldn't feel anything but amazement and awe. He's one of the most amazing pitchers I've ever seen. It transcends party lines, so to speak.

So I can't even take schadenfraude pleasure in this one.

by Grant Brisbee on Aug 8, 2006 12:20 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

I don't think it's schadenfreude in any case; the Twins being in the AL Central means I have the same attitude about bad things happening to them that I do about bad things happening to the guy with the two-tone hair on the 22 Fillmore last month. (actually, on second thought, that guy's hair REALLY annoyed me)

What IS schadenfreude is that all the jackasses all over the MLB and MySpace boards who claimed that Sabean had no idea what he was doing when he made that trade now look exactly as stupid as they actually were. Whatever you think about the grow-'em then deal-'em attitude towards the farm system, injuries like this were the entire reason said philosophy was adopted.

And honestly. It's not like anyone who paid attention to Liriano before he was dealt is surprised in the least.

Which, incidentally, means the Giants once again have the best Liriano in professional baseball. Thank you, oh lawdy, for relative blessings.

"When I think of how many times the Enemy has tried to kill Gary Busey..."

by multiphasic on Aug 8, 2006 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

And honestly. It's not like anyone who paid attention to Liriano before he was dealt is surprised in the least.

If the injury does turn out to be serious I could pull out some quotes that make me look mighty smart, but there is still no way I can feel anything but sorrow at this news. He's just a fantastic talent.

And reading the MLB boards or MySpace rots your brain. Other than the oasis of the prospect chatter on sfgiants.com, those aren't the places to have intelligent conversations about baseball.

by Grant Brisbee on Aug 8, 2006 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

I think that's the first negative thing anyone has ever said about the intelligence of people on MySpace.

I've grown up a lot since before dinner, when we last talked.

by groug on Aug 8, 2006 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

I've had very meaningful discussions about drag bunting with Tila Tequila.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Aug 8, 2006 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that I was anything but bummed about the deal. I enjoy watching dominant pitchers more than just about anything else in baseball, so anything that hurts that crop hurts my overall enjoyment of the sport. I just thought it was worth mentioning because it just might add to Sabean's track record of traded pitchers who flame out.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Aug 8, 2006 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

And I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else was being ghoulish. Just that the potential existed for later on in a thread like this, that's all.

by Grant Brisbee on Aug 8, 2006 2:04 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

And reading the MLB boards or MySpace rots your brain.

And here my parents were convinced it was all the drugs. Boy won't they feel dumb.

"When I think of how many times the Enemy has tried to kill Gary Busey..."

by multiphasic on Aug 8, 2006 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Look

I only got a myspace page because my younger, hipper sister told me to. I wish you'd quit bringing it up.

by Dan from NM on Aug 8, 2006 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

Hey Grant, since you're not using your schadenfreude, can I borrow it? I used all mine up in the first 10 seconds after I heard Liriano was hurt. Hell, I'm feeling so good I might even start taking Terry Ryan's calls again.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."

by Brian Sabean on Aug 8, 2006 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

From what I heard and read, the injury itself is related to muscle soreness in his arm and has little to do with nagging elbow problems.

I took this to mean that he's a rookie who's pitched too many innings this year and wore out his arm, rather than that he's on the fast track to Mark Priordom. I've actually kind of been wondering when his arm was going to get tired this year because he's a young guy with a hard delivery and a couple of really dynamic pitches (and throwing dynamic pitches, fastball somewhat aside, can be pretty tough on the arm). Hopefully soreness from not having the stamina for 33 starts a year is all it is.

Is there news that it's worse, though? Has all this talk of "soreness" really just been media posing? I hope the kid's not blowing his elbow out, but it's not unlikely that he's just suffering the effects of a longer season than he's ever had to pitch, is it?

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2006 1:16 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

Hopefully it's just soreness and/or fatigue. If I remember correctly, this sounds like what they were saying about Jesse Foppert before they decided he needed TJ surgery. I am not saying this is the case, but I thought they originally diagnosed him with a forearm cramp or muscle problem. Anyone recall? I could be wrong.

by sfgreg on Aug 8, 2006 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

I've also read it was muscular discomfort in the forearm, rather than an elbow issue. If that true, it's a good thing. But I'm not sure you can write it off to fatigue. He's thrown 119 innings so far, on pace for only about 180 on the year. Last year, he threw 191.1 combined innings in the minors and majors.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f***ing amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 8, 2006 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

Innings-wise it does seem pretty early for this kind of what-I'd-hope-is-routine soreness to crop up, and the potential for media posing by a team in heated contention for a wild card spot down the stretch regarding the brightest spot maybe on their whole roster in a situation where a significant injury to said spot could be demoralizing enough to knock down the teams overall level of play to a point where they end up wasting the last two months of extremely good baseball is pretty convincing to make one think that it's worse than they're saying. Especially considering the biggest blemish on this guys scouting report when he was even younger and more resilient was injury.

But I still hope that in his first full year in majors he just pushed his arm a little too hard over the first half of the season trying to live up to expectations and give a then struggling team a much needed shot in the arm (cortisone?). It would have been easy for a young guy like him, pushing himself maybe unreasonably hard, to wear out his arm quicker than usual, like trying to sprint the whole of a 20 mile marathon. We'll find out in the next couple weeks anyway.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2006 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions

::gasp::cough::

I believe that's the longest first sentence in the history of MCC! I didn't actually finish reading it - I passed out from a lack of oxygen. But kudos anyway.

Waiting for Travis, Nate, Marcus, and Nick P.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 8, 2006 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: ::gasp::cough::

I made it through on the third try. If Grant is MCC's Hemingway, then howtheyscored must be its Joyce...

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Aug 8, 2006 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

I honestly couldn't say. Teams will rarely admit how deep an injury like that goes until the surgeon's scalpel has pierced the skin, and elbow soreness is a symptom of any number of serious injuries. It could just be fatigue, but it could just as easily be something worse.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Aug 8, 2006 2:15 AM PDT up reply actions

Still a Bad Trade

I was in favor of the trade when it went down. Being a prospect watcher, I knew Liriano had the potential to be great or be injured all the time. Giving up Nathan made me more uneasy, but it seemed to me that Alou had gotten into his head and he would never prosper with Alou managing him. Bonser, eh?

My wife is a Twins fan, so I was pretty familiar with AJ and really like the way he played the game. A lefthanded hitting catcher with a .280=.300 BA and decent D is a very valuable commodity.

The problem I have with the trade, in retrospect, is that Sabean himself never really believed in it. You don't make a trade of that magnitude and then turn around and let the guy go to arbitration. you've got to have made up your mind ahead of time that you'll do what it takes to get him signed to a long term deal. Now, I'm not saying I think we should have kept AJ long term. He obviously wasn't a good fit here(although one wonders how much his attitude was affected by his contract issues with Sabean). I'm saying that if Sabean didn't have enough faith in AJ to get him signed to a long term deal, then he never should have made the trade in the first place.

Hopefully, for the sake of baseball, Liriano won't become another Wayne Simpson or Mark Fidyrich.

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 8, 2006 5:56 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Still a Bad Trade

Dr. B, that's one of the smartest takes on the Trade That Dare Not Speak Its Name I've ever seen. The arb fiasco often gets overlooked, but maybe things went sour for AJ in the hearings.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Aug 8, 2006 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Still a Bad Trade

The Giants were clearly pissed at him for going to arbitration which never made any sense to me. If he wasn't going to sign a deal with the only organization he'd ever known, what possible incentive could he have had to cut a deal with an organization that he had no allegiance to whatsoever. (I also felt they'd done a poor job of scouting his hitting style, which the metrodome was more forgiving to, but enough said on that.)

by Roger on Aug 8, 2006 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Thank You

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 8, 2006 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Still a Bad Trade

Hopefully, for the sake of baseball, Liriano won't become another Wayne Simpson or Mark Fidyrich. --------------------------------------------- Exactly what I was thinkin....well ok... the Fidyrich part.....

Click for SF Giants Fans Board... Home of Merkin's ATT Park Sausage Reviews

by merkin on Aug 8, 2006 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Still a Bad Trade

DrB,
There's also the old saying "Don't throw good money after bad." I get what you're saying, but looking at it from the other side, one could say it took guts for Sabean to cut his losses and move on. Plus, we really don't know how much of a problem-child he was behind the scenes and keeping might not have been an option in any way, shape or form.

One-game winning streak; woohoo!

by Goofus on Aug 8, 2006 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions

I generally agree...

Goofus. IMO, one of Sabean's more admirable qualities as a GM is his willingness to cut bat with failed players. However,I don't think DrB or lefty really suggests that they should have retained AJ after his 1st season. Rather they argue that Sabean should have signed him long term prior to that unmitigated disaster.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Aug 8, 2006 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: I generally agree...

My understanding was that they were trying to sign him to something longer-term before he even played his first game with us. (I remember them talking about it at Fanfest when they interviewed AJ live.)

At home point along the way, whether it was Conte's nut crunch, or the "cancer" talk/article or something else like he he wasn't producing as expected (offensively or defensively), perhaps Sabean said, "Whoa, maybe this a-hole just isn't worth it."

One-game winning streak; woohoo!

by Goofus on Aug 8, 2006 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions

AJ's Side of the Story......

is that Sabean offered him $2.5 M and AJ thought he could do better in arbitration. Sabes got mad and told him that if he went to arbitration, he would be gone after the season. If true, it was unprofessional for AJ to let that color his attitude toward teammates and for it to affect his performance, but it was also stupid of Sabean to not negotiate.

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 8, 2006 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: AJ's Side of the Story......

Boy that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard if true. That would clearly be a win-win for AJ, get the max one year out of arbitration and then become an early FA. How exactly would that be giving him any incentive to work out a deal?

by Roger on Aug 9, 2006 5:54 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

Oh, great! What else can go wrong for Fresno? They have to play most of the year without Mike Cervenak, and now Pedro Liriano is hurt.

Waiting for Travis, Nate, Marcus, and Nick P.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 8, 2006 7:00 AM PDT reply actions

seriously....

I think Fresno might be cursed. I am calling it right now: Phil Niekro who has experienced elbow discomfort since his demotion to Fresno will require TJ surgery. I thought the knuckleball inured pitchers to most injuries.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Aug 8, 2006 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions

It sounds a little too much like an obituary...

but Liriano has (or depending on the extent of his injury, had) the most impressive stuff I have ever seen. As a fan of baseball in general I sincerely wish him a speedy recovery.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Aug 8, 2006 8:32 AM PDT reply actions

Re: It sounds a little too much

Absolutely. I've been thinking that the combination of Santana/Liriano/Mauer/Morneau makes the Twins the most exciting potential World Series contender to root for.

by Roger on Aug 8, 2006 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

If the Twins call up Matt Garza and he picks up right where Liriano left off, however, my pity will be replaced immediately with burning, burning jealousy.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Aug 8, 2006 1:42 PM PDT reply actions

Jealousy

You know how the Twins did this? Well, other than our GM's stupidity? They lost a bunch of FA's and had compensatory and supplemental picks. something like 5 for 6 first rounders in one year. That was while our GM was dumping draft choices. The Twins used those extra picks to stock up on high ceiling pitchers and are now loaded to the gills. They will probably have to trade some of them for hitting eventually, but they are sitting very pretty right now.

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 8, 2006 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

if nothing else Liriano's injury ought to let the dead horse rest in peace for awhile.

by orangeandblackattack on Aug 8, 2006 3:00 PM PDT reply actions

I wonder

if this is the Liriano the Twins can expect every year -- dominating but fragile, with perhaps 160 to 180 IP a year of ace-dom.

by Dan from NM on Aug 8, 2006 6:55 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Liriano Hurt

So, Will Carroll suspects Liriano's injury to be forearm tendonitis, the same type of injury that has resulted in Tommy John surgery for Victor Zambrano and some sort of elbow surgery for Josh Patterson. He also compared it to Brandon Webb, who I don't recall having surgery unless it was a while ago, so it isn't necessarily as severe as the first two cases.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Aug 9, 2006 12:52 PM PDT reply actions

Will's paragraph...

was slightly unclear. Forearm tendinits did not lead to TJ surgery in Zambrano. Rather, the team initially misdiagnosed a tear in an elbow ligament (connective tissue which stabalizes the joint) as forearm tendinitis (inflammation of the tendons which connect the forearm muscles to the bone). Similarly Patterson's surgery did not result from the tendinitis but rather from inflammation of a nerve. In effect, Carroll tried to make the case in a roundabout way that "forearm tendinitis" really serves as a catch all diagnosis for a variety of specific ailments of varying severity.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Aug 9, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Will's paragraph...

Forearm tenderness was also the original reason given for what turned out to be the end of Liriano's season in Hagerstown in '02 -- at least that was what the Suns press release said at the time.

by Roger on Aug 9, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions

True

The lesion that requires TJ is a tear of the Ulnar Collateral Ligament. I'm not an orthopedist, but I can't think of any reason why you would want to operate on a tendonitis which is just inflammation.

I can't think of the specific instances, but I seem to recall several injuries which were initially described as forearm strain which later turned out to require TJ. I do specifically remember that Jesse Foppert was diagnosed as having ulnar neuritis and received a cortisone shot prior to feeling the "snap" in his elbow that was the last pitch he threw before surgery. I believe both Eric Gagne and Kelyn Acosta have had problems with ulnar nerve inflamation post TJ. Again, I'm not a orthopedist and my Anatomy class was a long time ago, but I believe the ulnar nerve AKA "funny bone" runs in a groove under or over the ulnar collateral ligament.

My theory with Foppert is that he got the cortisone shot to reduce the inflammation around the nerve. The cortisone weakened the ligament and he started throwing too soon after the injection. I don't have any inside information, just an educated guess based on published reports.

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 9, 2006 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions