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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Younger!?

"I think it's fair to say with free agents, we're going to go through a huge transformation," general manager Brian Sabean said. "It's going to be a huge makeover. ... I don't know if you say the last hurrah, but you can do the math. I can see us getting younger and attacking the market as aggressively as we can. The one thing we can hang our hat on is our young pitching."

Star-divide

Younger, Brian? Younger? Blasphemy.

Well it's good to hear him say all the right things anyway - attacking the market, getting younger.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2517478

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Unfortunately...
I just don't see much of a market to attack.
You look like I need a drink

by kenshin1 on Jul 12, 2006 3:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Unfortunately...
Granted, the Giants could get younger by signing a bunch of 35-year-olds, but if you're talking about full-time free agent hitters who are (barely) under 30 right now, this is all I was able to come up with:

Alex Gonzalez
Aubrey Huff
Juan Pierre
A.J. Pierzynski
Craig Wilson

Yeah... not much to attack...

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 12, 2006 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

We need a proven .300 AVG catcher right?
::ducks::
I take it back, I do blame F.P. Santangelo and Greg Papa.

by WalrusMan on Jul 12, 2006 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: We need a proven .300 AVG catcher right?
Wilson hasn't caught in a few years, plus he's more of a power guy than an average guy.

I'm sure you weren't suggesting the Giants sign one of those other players to play catcher.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 12, 2006 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: We need a proven .300 AVG catcher right?
Not only proven, but an ALLSTAR...
QED mofo!

by Ruths Curse Steakhouse on Jul 12, 2006 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: We need a proven .300 AVG catcher right?
Plus he was chosen by the fans, so he must be a great guy!

by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Jul 12, 2006 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: We need a proven .300 AVG catcher right?
Perhaps I'm biased but I think fans voted him in because they were hoping for a replay of the Barrett punch, except with an all-star player this time: A.J. deserves to be punched by an All-Star player, not some non-all-star.

Personally, I think a cat fight between A.J. and Anna Benson would have been a great event after the HR hitting event.  And I would bet on Anna, but she better watch his nails.  

Go Giants: Winn It All with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 12, 2006 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Attacking the Market
If I had a dollar for everytime Brian Sabean has used the phrase "attack the market," I could retire today.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jul 12, 2006 3:20 PM PDT reply actions  

at least...
he is saying all the right things at the moment.  I still maintain a modicum of faith in Sabes.
You look like I need a drink

by kenshin1 on Jul 12, 2006 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: at least...
As a counter, I would say that Sabean always has said the right things - it is the execution of the right things that had been lacking sometimes (oftimes?), like when he said he needed to do more than just get A.J. but then got no one else of significance...

But I'm keeping the faith in Sabean.  As much as people deride the farm system, close to half the team (40%?) is now home grown and the majority of them are in their 20's.  You can't run before you walk so I take that as a sign of positive progress, even though part of that was because of the failure on the part of vets/"vets", like Munter, Taschner, Walker, Fassero, and Worrell.  

And we have a number of players who should be pushing to the majors over the next 2-3 years in EME, Valdez, Schierholtz, Ishikawa, Lewis, Ortmeier, Linden, Griffin, Joaquin, Martis, plus all the pitchers doing well now whose names I only know through Steve's diaries (Pereira, et al)

In terms of prospects, this era, for me, is probably the best it has ever been, since I first followed the Giants.  There were probably at most two handfuls of pitchers (Grant, Remlinger, Torres, Cook, Mulholland, Downs, Wilson, Garrelts) who I was really excited about as prospects (and I admit that lack of information was part of the reason, though I've collected the Media Guide for nearly 20 years now, so it's not that big an excuse, I read through the players stats to find players like Benji Simonton, Rickert Fineyte, and some pitcher named Hostetler or something like that, who had great years then fizzled) over all these years until recently and none of them ever panned out, really (though who's to say any of the current will pan out either).  And hitters, after early excitement with Dave Kingman, George Foster, Chris Speier, Gary Mathews, Garry Maddux, it was pretty sparse, Jack Clark, Chili Davis, Will Clark, Matt Williams, as far as impact type of players (and I am being kind to include Chili).

And as I noted, who's to say any of these will pan out, but I'm pretty jazzed overall about our farm system.  Perhaps it is because of such lowered expectations of all the failures we had before, but I think it is more an appreciation of how hard it really is to draft players when you do not get a draft pick in the first 10 picks overall, particularly in the first 5 picks, where you typically have a pretty good chance to pick up someone who is good or better.  I don't intend to beat a dead horse but the odds are like 9-1 against picking a good player even with a late first round draft pick.  So if you are average, you pick one good player, maybe a couple useful players, and a whole bunch of marginal to career minor leaguers, over 10 years of late first round draft picking.  And obviously the odds are even worse going to the latter rounds, much much worse.  

One of these days I'm going to calculate what the expected value, in terms of star, good, useful, and mediocre players are, when the probabilities are summed up for a draft and over a GM's career, that should give a better indication whether or not to appreciate what Sabean has done, maybe my impression is wrong.

Go Giants: Winn It All with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 12, 2006 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

counter to the counter...
I would be pretty shocked if more than 1 of the players listed above made it as a big league regular.
You look like I need a drink

by kenshin1 on Jul 12, 2006 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: at least...
No GM is ever going to be perfect. AJ was a terrible trade in hindsite, but, who knew AJ would be that much of a punk. He did have the most RBI's in his career that season. Nathan had only two saves in his entire career before being traded. Liriano was only 18 so was all potential and no fact.
  Sabean is one of the best GM's in baseball in my opinion. Magowan wanted to win it during Bonds' era and all trades and free agency signings were geared towards that goal, even if that means the minor leagues are left depleted, with young pitching the main position drafted over the years even if they were mostly used for trade bait ie Nathan , Williams, Moss, Ainsworth, and Liriano of which only Nathan and Liriano is the only one in the majors, so there are other GM's who thought the Giants had some prospects that ended up not working out.
   I think after this year there will be some lean years with the young pitching being the only thing keeping the Giants competitive while we pay for past sins during the Bonds era which was pretty fun to watch until the past two years.
  That being said, if we just had Nathan back and thought to use him as a closer and not a starter or set up man, the Giants would have won several more division championships in that time.
Keeping a close eye on the Giants AAA players

by Andy In Fresno on Jul 12, 2006 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know this isn't the way it works...
But which situation would you rather have...
  1. You put 90 million into a team for 10 years (every year increasing by some marginal value according to the rest of the league) and some years they get into the playoffs and sometimes they don't.  Once or twice they go deep into the playoffs.  But never win anything.  900 million over 10 years.
  2. You put 50 million into a team for 6 years and then 150 million into a team for the remaining 4 years.  For 6 years you squander in 4th and 5th place, once or twice having the worst record in the league.  But then the last 4 years you compete in the playoffs, going into them all 4 years, going deep in two or three of the years, and winning the World Series once or twice.  900 million over 10 years.
After the kind of 90 million for 10 years approach that Sabean has used, competing for many years straight, it looks like it would be easy to "save money" for a while and then "spend it" for a few years.  But of course that isn't the way it would work.  They'd save the money but then spend it in the same way it always goes.

It's kind of a trade off.  Do you want excitement for a long time but no real success?  Or do you want to hate the team for a few years and then succeed for a few years, then go back to hating the team?

I take it back, I do blame F.P. Santangelo and Greg Papa.

by WalrusMan on Jul 12, 2006 3:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: I know this isn't the way it works...
Who says that you will still generate the revenues to support the $90M in average payroll you expect to receive in years 7-10, after eatting it for 6 years?  The most you can kill the team without alternative sources of income (TBS, WGN, YES) is probably 2-3 years, before you have to be competitive again, I think, or risk a large slide in revenues and attendence.

Then again, how have the Tigers been doing?  For that matter, how about the Reds?  In attendence that is.  But how much lower are their revenues today vs. when the bad streak began?  2-3 years is my gut talking but I don't have any data on this...

Go Giants: Winn It All with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 12, 2006 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: I know this isn't the way it works...
I've argued back and forth with people about this many times.  My positions stands like this:

I want more than anything to see the Giants win the World Series, even if only once.  I would rather have us suck for 9 years and win it once.  However, should that happen, my position would change.  I would rather see my team do well every year but not win it all, if I had already seen them win it once.  

It's like the 49ers.  I couldn't care less if they win another super bowl.  Do I want them to? Sure.  But I would much rather have 10 decent years in a row than have the last few years over and over with one more championship.  

2002? I'm over it.

by wjackalope on Jul 12, 2006 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: I know this isn't the way it works...
I'm the opposite opinion from you.  I like them being competitive and I'll take my chances in the post-season.  As a season-ticket holder, no way do I want them going through an extended painful "rebuilding" process just to get one title.
Today's Spanish lesson: Como se dice "Blown save?" "Armando Benitez?" "Correctamundo!"

by Goofus on Jul 12, 2006 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I want long-term excitement and success
Fifty million dollar teams don't necessarily have to be bad teams and 150 million dollar teams aren't all they're cracked up to be.  I don't think our budget is what's holding us back.

Let's look at option 2 a different way: For two or three years, you spend fifty to sixty million on ML payroll and invest heavily in some serious player development.  You evaluate the farm systems of successful organizations and apply what you learn so that you can start to rebuild what you've ignored for the last fifteen years.  You suffer a few bad seasons, but every year you make a little progress and you start getting a few exciting young players.  You use that excitement, along with your beautiful, relatively new ballpark and ride out the lean years until you can start relying on the farm to regularly produce a few legitimate ML ball-players every year.  Then, without neglecting development, you start going after some decent free-agents, including an all-star or two.  After seven or eight years, if you find yourself in a good enough position, you spend some reserve cash and take your shot.

What does all that cost?  Maybe as little as 750M, maybe as much as 900M or a little more (ignoring the effects of inflation).  The point is that you've got a source of young, cheap talent that you can use or deal.  It's not by any means perfect and there will be the occasional famine, but it's not the random crapshoot that some would suggest.  Its a market and if other organizations can prosper, then so can we if we commit to it.

"'alice' was a very importent show to the hip-hop community, that show had mad flo" --pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth

by SerpentX on Jul 12, 2006 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

They have to get younger...
...only because there aren't going to be enough 43-year-old free agents on the market next winter.
"It's not an offensive move, but it might be." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Jul 12, 2006 3:29 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: They have to get younger...
nice
Today's Spanish lesson: Como se dice "Blown save?" "Armando Benitez?" "Correctamundo!"

by Goofus on Jul 12, 2006 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: They have to get younger...
What about that guy with the Mets, Julio Franco, we could sign him up and that would cover things age-wise.
Go Giants: Winn It All with Feliz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 12, 2006 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: They have to get younger...
And we'd get a little more power off the bench.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Jul 12, 2006 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: They have to get younger...
I believe the Mets signed him to a 2-year contract.  Julio Franco, Giants starting 1B in 2008??

by losingcalifornia on Jul 12, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's wait
until the hip-replacement surgery has had a chance to fully heal.
"'alice' was a very importent show to the hip-hop community, that show had mad flo" --pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth

by SerpentX on Jul 12, 2006 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Younger!?
Draper's column today predicted a DFA for Worrell in the 2nd half.  Do you think he would have written that if someone in the organization hadn't fed it to him?

by Roger on Jul 12, 2006 5:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Younger!?
I don't know, but I do think that is very unusual for Draper to write something like that. Interesting...
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 12, 2006 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: How about they sign...
If he can play first, I'd give him a look-see.

by leewhee on Jul 12, 2006 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Younger!?
Not Draper.  He's pretty much a PR guy for the org.  

by orangeandblackattack on Jul 12, 2006 5:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Younger!?
Minnie Minoso available?
FIRE FLIPPY NOW!

by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 13, 2006 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Younger!?
Wow, I didn't realize that Minoso had played as recently as 2003 (1 at bat - he walked! - for the St. Paul Saints). At age 80. Now that's some serious veteran savvy!
"It's not an offensive move, but it might be." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Jul 13, 2006 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

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