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The Sabes Record

Presented without comment, the Sabean record since the end of the 2002 World Series.  These transactions aren't in perfect order.  Please comment on any omissions.

2003 Season

Signs Felipe Alou
Signs Ray Durham
Signs Edgardo Alfonzo
Signs Jose Cruz Jr.
Signs Marquis Grissom
Signs Neifi Perez
Signs Kirk Rueter to a contract extension
Trades Russ Ortiz for Damian Moss and Merkin Valdez
Trades Livan Hernandez and Edwards Guzman for Jim Brower and Matt Blank
Trades Damian Moss, Kurt Ainsworth and Ryan Hannaman for Sidney Ponson
Trades Clay Hensley for Matt Herges
Claims Dustin Hermanson off waivers
Claims Jeffrey Hammonds off waivers
Trades Greg Bruso for Eric Young

2004 Season

Trades Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser and Francisco Liriano for A.J. Pierzynski
Re-signs J.T. Snow
Claims Deivi Cruz off waivers
Signs Michael Tucker
Trades J.T. Thomas for Dustan Mohr
Signs Brett Tomko
Re-signs Jeffrey Hammonds
Signs Tyler Walker
Trades Carlos Villanueva and Glenn Woolard for Wayne Franklin and Leo Estrella
Trades Felix Rodriguez for Ricky Ledee
Trades Josh Habel for Dave Burba

2005 Season

Releases A.J. Pierzynski
Signs Mike Matheny
Signs Omar Vizquel
Signs Moises Alou
Signs Armando Benitez
Signs Jeff Fassero
Signs Pedro Feliz to a contract extension
Re-signs Jason Christensen
Trades Jerome Williams and David Aardsma for LaTroy Hawkins
Trades Jesse Foppert and Yorvit Torrealba for Randy Winn
Trades Deivi Cruz for Benjamin Cox
Trades Michael Tucker for Kelvin Pichardo

2006 Season

Trades LaTroy Hawkins for Steve Kline
Signs Matt Morris
Signs Tim Worrell
Signs Jose Vizcaino
Signs Randy Winn to a contract extension
Signs Jamey Wright
Trades Edgardo Alfonzo for Steve Finley
Signs Mark Sweeney
Signs Todd Greene
Trades Tyler Walker for Carlos Hines

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: The Sabes Record
Am I just crazy, or didn't we get something (crappy) for Christiansen?  

by dangjackson on Jun 27, 2006 4:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Omissions
He signed and then released Alex Sanchez. He traded Jason Christiansen to the Angels for Bergman and Ray. He released Dustan Mohr. He resigned Fassero for the 2006 season, then released him.

by Salemicus on Jun 27, 2006 4:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
2003: Don't Drink and Dial

by zenbitz on Jun 27, 2006 5:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
2004:  Guarantees the last year of Barry Bonds' contract (2006)...

by Skaldheim on Jun 27, 2006 5:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Magowan guaranteed the last year of Bonds' deal.  Sabean doesn't have the juice to do that on his own.

by Sinister Dick on Jun 27, 2006 5:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Doh, you are dead on there.  My bad.

by Skaldheim on Jun 27, 2006 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
released Woody. released Brower. Signed and released Reuben Rivera (hehe) in 2003.
Fire Flippy.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 27, 2006 5:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
2007-Finally realizing that he screwed up by not getting Vlad Guererro and coming to the conclusion that he will never land Miguel Cabrera, he does the next best thing, signs Todd Linden to a 5 year (player option on year 6) $70 million contract.

by Todd Linden on Jun 27, 2006 5:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Pretty sorry record over the past four years when you see it in black and white. I suppose the Winn deal and the Finley swap are the highlights and obviously the Nathan deal the lowlight.

But most of the moves accomplished little or nothing, just rearranging the deck chairs.

You could make a case that the FA signings of Alou, Vizquel, Metheny have worked out OK. But given the money these guys are getting, there might have been a better way to allocate that dough.

by leewhee on Jun 27, 2006 5:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Out of 47 transactions, I can see 2 that I actually would call inspired.
  1. Signing Hermanson
  2. Trading for Winn
Of course the benefit of the trade for Winn was undone when Sabean fell for the notion that two months of 1.071 OPS outweighs the other seven years and four months of .750ish OPS.

Anyway, Sabean's an idiot, since 2002.  Before 2002 he was a good GM, but not since.

by tobias on Jun 27, 2006 6:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Some folks suggest that Sabean's focus on FA's vs homegrown is folly, that you can't build a winning club that way.

But take a look at the Chisox. There's only one homegrown field player on the entire roster---Crede. The rest have been acquired via trade or, primarily via FA over the past 3 years.

They got a bit lucky with Konerko who they stole as a rookie from the Dodgers. But generally the Chisox haven't gone after the big names, but focused on role players. And they definitely don't sign 38-40+ guys.

The only risky move they made was picking up a potentially iffy Thome. But that has turned out great and he only DHs anyway.

They also have dipped in the Asia talent pool as so many teams have. Amazing that the Giants, in the most Asian-dominated market in the bigs, have completely ignored the Asian FA market. And they were the first team in the MLs to sign a Japanese player, Masanori Murakami way back in 1964.

by leewhee on Jun 27, 2006 6:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
You seem to be ignoring he of the orange sweatband sleeves:  Tsuyoshi Shinjo.

by Ruths Curse Steakhouse on Jun 27, 2006 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
We picked Shinjo up from the Mets. So he wasn't a true Japan-to-US FA. He was a retread. Not to mention a crappy player, both in Japan and here.

by leewhee on Jun 27, 2006 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
But he's so pretty.
club ph34r - comics! rally hippo - crappier comics!

by Natto on Jun 27, 2006 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
The Sox got Konerko from Cincy for Mike Cameron. Cincy got him from the Dodgers in a deal for Jeff Shaw, if I remember correctly.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f***ing amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 27, 2006 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
People's impressions need to change: Sabean's homegrown now occupy a good number of spots on the roster and only look to take more in future years.  Just look down the roster:  Ellison, Feliz, Frandsen/Niekro, Alfonzo, Cain, Lowry, Accardo, Correia, Hennessey, Sanchez, that's 10 of 25 players, 9 considering Alfonzo's spot would disappear once Matheny's returned.  That's over a third of the roster.  
Lowry and Cain, then wish for more of the same

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 28, 2006 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Sabean blew it with the AJ deal. Other than that his moves have pretty much helped build competitive teams. I'd love to see him given a larger budget to deal with, but his signings - sans AJ - made good sense at the time and made the Giants stronger. Count me as someone who would hate to see him go.
yob

by Sayhey on Jun 27, 2006 6:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
SO 80 million + isn't a big enough budget? One also should look at some of the things he didn't do. Like Bill Mueller back when he could have had him for a song.
Hey...wait a second...Are you throwing at my head?

by Ghost11 on Jun 27, 2006 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
No it is not, if you want to be able to pursue the top flight free agents. For instance, the Giants ruled out jumping into the Vlad sweepstakes and I think it was a mistake. However, it was a mistake caused by the budget not by a misevaluation of Guerrero's talent.
yob

by Sayhey on Jun 27, 2006 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Fyi, that off season, the Giants acquired AJ (and paid him $3.5 million), Neifi ( and paid him $2.5 million), Tucker (and paid him $1.5 mil), extended Reuter the year before (and paid him $ 7 mil). The money for Vlad was there - it was just horribly misallocated.

by Aadik on Jun 27, 2006 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
The problem with Sabeans approach and an $80-90M budget is the following:
  1. You end up spending 1/2 your budget on half decent vets instead of young cheap guys you would have if you developed some position players
  2. You don't have any money in reserve when the inevitable old guy flames out (Alfonzo!)

by zenbitz on Jun 28, 2006 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Sabean's approach has also given the Giants one of the best records in baseball over his tenure. Which should perhaps be factored into any evaluation of the fellow.

Not that I disagree that there are problems to his approach AND the budget of the Giants. We always seem to lack the ability to sign the one other superstar that could get us over the top. To me, that cries "raise the budget" and go get the guy, but to too many here it says we should clean house of veterans and go with young kids who have proven nothing on the hope they can do better on the cheap. Between the latter option and the status quo, I'll stick with Sabes.

yob

by Sayhey on Jun 28, 2006 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Barry Bonds has given the Giants one of the best records in baseball. Sabean has been along for the ride with the best player of this era and one of the greatest of all time (yes, alleged 'roids aside). 2005 showed us what his strategy can do with no Bonds, and it's quite pathetic.

Not to mention that since '93 Sabean has not produced one single major league quality player with the exception of Billy Mueller (who still has below average pop for a 3rd basemen, and who also he failed to sign).

Those of us calling for the cleaning out of the veterans realize that this team has little to no shot of doing anything this year, and is in for a WORLD of hurt next year and possibly for several years after that (name someone besides Winn who'll be playing a position next year and is of any quality). Sabean has already proven he doesn't know how to build through young players, so he is clearly not the guy to lead us through this next era.

Also, better to go with players who haven't proven anything than players who've already proven that they suck or that their time is up.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 28, 2006 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
>Barry Bonds has given the Giants one of the best records in baseball.

So is it coincidence the Giants sucked with Bonds in '95/'96 but got better when Sabean took over in 1997?

>since '93 Sabean has not produced one single major league quality player with the exception of Billy Mueller

Do you mean position player? Because the Giants have produced plenty of quality pitchers in the last 10 years.    

Me gustan tomar mis copas / Aguardiente es lo mejor / También la tequila blanca / Con su sal le da sabor

by leftymalo on Jun 28, 2006 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Baseball is a 9 man game, and even a player as great as BOnds can't carry you if don't at least have mediocre talent at the other positions (and I'm sure Giants fans remember, J.R. Phillips, Stan Javier starting in right field, Scarsone having to play 100+ games etc. etc.) With largely average talent and role players around him starting in '97 the Giants starting contending, and when he became ridiculous from '99 on he became the rare kind of player that elevated everyone else in the lineup.

And of course I mean position players. Pitchers are great and you need them to be serious contenders (and in that respect Sabean has done a good job largely because of the volume of pitchers drafted and traded for), but position players play 9 innings for 160 games and make up the meat and potatoes on your ball club. If your gonna have the philosphy of growing pitchers and buying hitters, then you should go out and get some hitters! Vizcaino? Greene? Sweeney as a semi-regular player? This is the best money can buy?

Sabes did a good job of building a competitive team around Bonds on a limited budget for 6 years. But give the credit where it is due, to the best player of this era. Unfortunately both his and Sabean's time is up, and without a World Series.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 28, 2006 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Sabean became GM 9/30/96.  Before his promotion to GM, Sabean was the Giants' senior VP (player personnel) in 1995  He also served from 1993-95 as assistant to Bob Quinn and VP of scouting/player personnel.

Since Brian Sabean came to the Giants' organization, the Giants have not drafted a single position player who came through through the system and ended up starring for the Giants.  Bill Mueller comes close to filling that bill, but his best years have been elsewhere, after the Giants had given up on him. And the reason the Giants gave up on him may have something to do with the fact that Bill Mueller wasn't actually all that great as a hitter.  His .369 OBP as a Giant was OK, but his .762 OPS wasn't any great shakes for a corner infielder.  

The truth is, if I were Brian Sabean, Bill Mueller isn't really the kind of player I'd want to hold up as the finest example of what my 14 years in the Giants' organization had produced in a position player.  One great year, with Boston not SF (2003--the only year he slugged over .450), and the other 10?  Just mediocre-to-pretty good, and more mediocre than good, with the Giants years all in the "mediocre" column.  Don't get me wrong, I always liked Mueller (until he became a Dodger) and was happy to see him get that ring with Boston. But if that's the best position player Sabean can point to after 14 years, I would think he'd be embarassed to show his face in public.

And saying "the Giants have produced plenty of quality pitchers in the last 10 years" begs credulity, in my opinion. Or I guess I'd want to see your definition of the words "plenty" and "quality".

From my perspective, and being generous, I guess I could say that the Giants farm system has produced  five quality pitchers in the last 10 years. They are:

~Bobby Howry (traded to CWS in the '97 trade that brought in Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Danny Darwin) -- Quiet but decent career as a relief pitcher with the White Sox, Red Sox, Indians and Cubs.

~Keith Foulke (also part of that '97 trade) -- Some excellent years relieving (often closing) for the White Sox, A's and Red Sox.

~Scott Linebrink (traded to Houston 7/29/2000 for Doug Henry) -- Has been a very effective reliever the past four years with San Diego.

~Russ Ortiz (traded to Atlanta 12/2002 for Damian Moss and Merkin Valdez) -- Had good years with the Giants, and an especially good 2003 with Atlanta.

~Joe Nathan (traded to Minnesota 11/14/2003, along with...ehh, do I really need to rehash this?) -- Nathan had an excellent 2003 with the Giants, and has gone on to be one of the top closers in the American League the last three years.

A few things I notice about these five:

  1. The Giants didn't actually reap much benefit from any of them while they were with the Giants.  Ortiz was certainly a stalwart, but his best year came with the Braves.  The other four have all had their best years as non-Giants.  I'd love to see the Giants farm system produce a pitcher who actually goes on to be an All Star for the Giants.
  2. None of these five yielded much in the way of a long-term return as trade fodder.  Certainly Howry and Foulke gave the Giants some key arms in the '97 race.  And I could even go along with the idea that winning the West was so important that year that it mitigates the fact that Hernandez and Alvarez would only pitch a total of 99 regular season innings with the Giants, or that neither one exactly covered himself in glory in the '97 postseason (and the less said about Danny Darwin, the better).
  3. At least the Giants got something of value for the three of the five who were traded prior to 2002.  Although, again, maybe the word "value" needs to be revisited where Doug Henry is concerned.  But Sabean basically ended up with bupkis where the Ortiz and Nathan trades are concerned.  And yes, I would consider Merkin Valdez to be worthless at this point, and have no illusions that it shall ever be anything other than that in the future.  And please, please, please don't get me started on Sidney Ponson.
  4. Not one of those five has been what I would call a "difference maker" for the Giants--someone who really made their pitching staff significantly better.  I'm talking about a perennial All-Star, or at least a perennial #1 or #2 starter.  Ortiz showed some signs.  Nathan could definitely have been that one guy, but Sabean foolishly dealt him away because of one bad outing in the 2003 postseason.
There are maybe 3-4 more right now who I think have shown real signs of being able to add to that list of five.  

~Clay Hensley, who the Giants traded for Matt Herges.
~Noah Lowry -- Jury's still out.
~Matt Cain -- Still has much to learn about pitching; Looks promising though
~Francisco Liriano -- blargggghhhh

The other thing that Sabean apologists like to point out (I know, because I used to be one) is that Sabean has been masterful in parlaying his non-quality minor league pitchers for genuine major league talent.  This is very true...or it was true.  Unfortunately, the rest of MLB now seems to have caught on to Sabean's MO, and have learned to steer clear of the Ryan Vogelsongs, Darin Bloods, Jim Stoopses, Joe Fontenots and Nate Bumps that Brian used to always come a-peddlin'.  For the last four years, it has become very difficult for Sabean to produce those annual July Miracles he used to pull off with ease, back in the day.

Bottom line, Brian Sabean's bag-o'-tricks has been played out and used up.  He's got a suspect farm system at best.  He's had spotty success with his pitchers and 10 years of zilch from the hundreds of position players he's drafted in ten years at the helm.  

Furthermore, Sabean's regime has failed stunningly in the international arena.  While MLB teams have signed, developed and brought up scores of star players from the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Mexico, Japan and even Korea, the Giants have produced not one player of value (save for a certain Dominican pitcher who now seems to have some value for the Minnesota Twins) from outside the U.S.

The ship is sinking fast, and I personally have no confidence that Brian Sabean has the foggiest notion of how to right it.  I don't know if it was the crushing World Series meltdown or his nasty divorce, but since the end of 2002, Sabean hasn't been the same GM he used to be. Pre-October '02, Brian Sabean was a prescient, nervy, vervy, imaginative and energetic GM.  Now his moves seem marked by impatience, dull intellect, petulance, and even vindictivenes and arrogance.

He's just as much of the problem as Felipe.  He has to go.

by tobias on Jun 28, 2006 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Certainly Howry and Foulke gave the Giants some key arms in the '97 race.

Should read, "Certainly Alvarez and Hernandez gave the Giants some key arms in the '97 race".

by tobias on Jun 28, 2006 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
It seems that your definition of a successful GM is limited to one who gives nothing in return for star players. Such trades are rare, but certainly Sabean's record has many examples of trades in which the Giants got the better of the deal (Williams for Kent, the Schmidt trade, etc.) Secondly, you want all GMs to build teams through the development of position players drafted by their own organization. This, of course, leaves out minor-league players originally drafted by other organizations (Auriela, etc.) and established players who come from other organizations and help the Giants (Nen, Schmidt, Kent, Snow, etc.) There are many ways to build a team and your standard is only one of them. Sabean has built a team with one of the best win-loss records in baseball through a different approach, but one that is equally valid - especially when they have had the best player in baseball and the idea has been to win now.

Listen, I can get worked up as the next guy about the AJ trade or the weakness of position players in the farm system, but to then accuse anyone who says a good thing about what the Giants have done over the last nine plus year of being "apologists" for Sabean is just plain horseshit. Step back from the rhetoric and try to see both sides to the argument.

yob

by Sayhey on Jun 28, 2006 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
What "have they done" the last nine years? They've been to the playoffs a couple of times. Big friggin' deal. Is basic competence supposed to have me cartwheeling down the streets? Because they're not the Warriors I'm supposed to sing arias? Sports is about the pursuit of greatness and should be nothing else.

by Roger on Jun 29, 2006 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Basic competence doesn't get you into the playoffs four times (including one Series) and keep you in the division hunt most of those years. I'm not asking anyone to be happy with not winning it all. I AM saying that if you want to dog Sabean, at least be real in an evaluation of his record. It's one of the best in baseball.
yob

by Sayhey on Jun 29, 2006 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

War and Peace
Geez, sayhey.  No need to get all hot and bothered here.  I'm just expressing an opinion.  Sure, it's bile-filled, hateful and embittered, but it's still just an opinion.

Let me respond to some of your thoughts:

"It seems that your definition of a successful GM is limited to one who gives nothing in return for star players."

I'm not sure what I said that gave you that idea, but you are wrong.  I would define a successful GM as one who does all he can to put a winning team on the field.  In this regard, Brian Sabean (pre-10/2002) was a successful GM.  Brian Sabean (post-10/2002)...not very successful.  Through the end of 2002, Sabean made a series of good, sometimes great, sometimes spectacular deals.  But for the past nearly four years now, Sabean's trades have been mostly mediocre to poor to disastrous.  

I did like the Foppert/Yorvit-for-Winn trade.  And I loved the Edgardo Alfonzo-for-Finley trade, but mainly because the sight of Edgardo in a Giants uniform was beginning to make me want to gouge my own eyes out with a serving spoon.

"certainly Sabean's record has many examples of trades in which the Giants got the better of the deal (Williams for Kent, the Schmidt trade, etc.)"

Look, I wrote a long post.  A very long post.  It probably got a little boring so you skipped over some parts.  Maybe a lot of parts.  Anyway I'm sorry for not being more brief, but had you read my post in its entirety, you'd see that I do credit Sabean for many of his trades, pre-2002.  I think the Kent and Schmidt trades were nothing short of spectacular.  Furthermore, I've always disagreed with those who didn't want to give Sabean his due for the Kent trade, because they said "he lucked out on Kent/Tavarez was the key to the deal".  My thinking has always been this: Who cares why he made the deal?  Why he made a deal or what should have happened really doesn't matter.  All that matters is how the players performed.  Anyway, the Kent/Williams deal was a great trade and set the stage for the Giants' success of the late 90's and early 2000's.

"Secondly, you want all GMs to build teams through the development of position players drafted by their own organization.

I don't care what other GMs do.  What I would like to see the Giants' GM do--and what I think would greatly enhance their chances of winning a World Series--is to draft and develop position players at least as effectively as they are drafting and developing pitchers.  More effectively would be better.  I mean, as long as the Giants are going to have a farm system with all the scouts and teams, and managers, coaches, and instructors (roving and otherwise), and as long as they're going to draft, sign and bring up all those position players, why not actually have a few of 'em be good once in a while?  Don't you think that might be a good thing?

Look at it this way: Had the Giants had one decent middle infielder, first baseman, third baseman, or outfielder coming up these past five years or so, Sabean doesn't need to go out and sign Michael Tucker, or Edgardo Alfonzo, or Ray Durham, or Omar Vizquel, or Mike Matheny or Randy Winn.  With the possible exception of Dreamy, those are all pretty much replacement level players at best.  But because the Farm System cupboard was bare, Sabean was forced to overpay in $$ and years to bring those guys in, and he was unable to bring in the type of player who could really give the lineup some punch.

The thing is, through the end of 2002, Brian Sabean was doing a good job of putting productive hitters on the team.  J.T. Snow (for a while), Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks, Rich Aurilia, and even Ray Durham (after a fashion).

Giants' .800+ OPS Hitters (starters or 300+ PA):
> > > > > > > > > OPS
1997: J.T. Snow    (.897)
       Barry Bonds (1.031)
1998: Jeff Kent    (.914)
       Barry Bonds (1.047)
1999: J.T. Snow    (.821)
       Jeff Kent   (.877)
       Barry Bonds (1.006)
       Marvin Benard (.816)
       Ellis Burks (.963)
2000: Bobby Estalella (.825)
       J.T. Snow    (.824)
       Jeff Kent    (1.020)
       Barry Bonds  (1.128)
       Ellis Burks  (1.025)
2001: Jeff Kent     (.876)
       Rich Aurilia (.941)
       Barry Bonds  (1.378)
2002: Jeff Kent     (.933)
       Barry Bonds  (1.381)
2003: J.T. Snow     (.805)
       Ray Durham   (.807)
       Barry Bonds  (1.278)
2004: J.T. Snow     (.958)
       Ray Durham   (.848)
       Barry Bonds  (1.421)

  1. Moises Alou   (.918)
  2. Barry Bonds   (1.004)
As you can see, the last two years, Sabean has failed to adequately replace the productive hitters of the past, Bonds included.

"This, of course, leaves out minor-league players originally drafted by other organizations (Auriela, etc.)..."

"Aurilia, etc."?  Well, Aurilia came to the Giants in December 1994, before Sabean was GM.  But OK, maybe Sabes helped engineer the deal somehow.  What I'm wondering about are those "et ceteras". Can you name some "et ceteras" for me that Sabean dealt for after he became GM in 1996?  I mean, the only et ceteras I can think of are John Johnstone and Felix Rodriguez. And you know what? I'd say those were OK trades. Not great, but definitely good. But again, my point isn't that Sabean has never made good trades. My point is he's not making good trades now.  
"There are many ways to build a team and your standard is only one of them."

I think a better way of putting it is, there are many venues from which a GM can bring in productive players (or players who will be productive once they've been developed in the farm system).  A simple list of venues would include:

~Amateur Draft
~International Free Agents
~Minor League and "Scrap Heap" Free Agents
~"A-List" Free Agents
~Trades

The point is, there are potentially great players in each of these venues.  A smart, effective GM maximizes his supply of talent by finding and developing players from each of these areas.  Sabean's problem is he develops no position players from the amateur draft, he doesn't find as many gems in the "scrap heap" as he once did, his trades have been weak since 2002, and he has completely ignored the international arena.  

The most significant result of this approach is, the Giants have a miserable farm system, completely bereft of talented postion players. Sabean has gotten away with this up to now because:

  1. He used to be able to snooker other teams into taking his overrated pitching prospects for their talented veterans.
  2. He once made a practice of pulling off gutsy and creative trades to bring in players like J.T. Snow, Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks and Robb Nen.
  3. He did a very good job of pulling productive players off of other teams' scrap heaps. Players like Benito Santiago, David Bell, Reggie Sanders, Kenny Lofton, Andres Galarraga, Tim Worrell, Brian Johnson, Joe Carter, Kirk Rueter (that was '96, so not sure if Sabes gets credit for this one) came very cheap and were all productive.  Sabean pulled off these kinds of deals over and over again the first several years he was GM.
  4. Barry Bonds was the kind of hitter that none of us have seen in our lifetime.  He was a colossus.  He was like having two, no three, no four, no five sluggers in the lineup.  OK, maybe just four.
But now, none of those things are really happening for Sabean or for the Giants.  Now, Sabes is forced to overpay on the Free Agent market for undertalented, overpriced players like Durham, Alfonzo and Matheny.  The result of that is a lineup of #7 hitters and an aging Barry Bonds.

"...they have had the best player in baseball and the idea has been to win now.

I get that, and I am fine with that.  But I still don't see why winning now with Bonds and developing a few hitters in the farm system have to be mutually exclusive.

"...to accuse anyone who says a good thing about what the Giants have done over the last nine plus year of being "apologists" for Sabean is just plain horseshit. Step back from the rhetoric and try to see both sides to the argument.

Who said this? "Pre-October '02, Brian Sabean was a prescient, nervy, vervy, imaginative and energetic GM."  HINT: It was just a few sentences above the beginning of your post.  I've said lots of good things about Sabean.  I do see both sides of the argument.  Heck, I've been on both sides of the argument.

But now, I just think the time has come to recognize that maybe Sabean has lost his fastball.  It happens.  Most GMs aren't good for more than a few years.  It's a tough job and I think it takes a lot of time and energy to really excel in the role.  And I really do think it's time for Sabean to step aside and for Magowan to bring in a 5-Venue GM.  Not just one who develops pitchers and writes checks to cover up the holes in his scouting department and farm system.

by tobias on Jun 29, 2006 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply to War and Peace (not in novel length)
A VERY long post, and much more balanced. And yes, I read it all; not just the cliffs-notes version. A few QUICK responses. The purpose of mentioning Aurelia was to give an example of a category of players (those drafted by other teams but developed in the Giants organization) that you seemed to rule out as another acceptable way of operating. Admittedly, this is not a huge category with the Giants who have made it their modus operandi to sign established players from other teams to complement Bonds. It does include a few other players besides Aurelia however - Estes and Zerbe come to mind. Secondly, the strategy of winning now and developing position players out of the farm system does not have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, I'm still hopeful that some of the kids work out (Frandsen, Ishikawa, maybe Niekro, Feliz maybe finally fulfilling his potential -  and if you include pitchers many more.) The reality is that each organization has to place a priority on where it puts its resources. The Giants have plainly done that in terms of getting established players and drafting and developing pitchers. So far it has worked out well during Sabean's tenure.

We don't have a disagreement about the Giants international efforts - they stink. Or should I say to be more balanced, they have fallen far short of other organizations.

In short, many of your points are important, if overstated, but they could use a tad less bile, hate, and bitterness. Other than that they're great.

yob

by Sayhey on Jun 30, 2006 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Hey 3 or the 5 were traded for Doug Henry! What's the odds of that?

by Roger on Jun 29, 2006 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
"Barry Bonds has given the Giants one of the best records in baseball. Sabean has been along for the ride with the best player of this era and one of the greatest of all time (yes, alleged 'roids aside). 2005 showed us what his strategy can do with no Bonds, and it's quite pathetic."

This is nonsense.  I'm sure that Barry Bonds made that trade that brought Jeff Kent to the team.  I'm sure that Barry Bonds drafted all those pitchers that the Giants traded for players.  I'm sure that Barry Bonds personally pulled the trigger on the Jason Schmidt deal.  It was really awesome how Bonds pulled Scott Eyre off the scrap heap and saw him become one of the premiere lefty relievers in the game.  And let's not forget last year, when Barry Bonds rebuilt the bullpen and made it a real strength in the second half!  (Not to mention bringing in Randy Winn for the stretch drive.)

by Skaldheim on Jun 28, 2006 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
On the Matt Williams deal, he compared Julian Tavarez to Mariano Rivera, and said of Vizcaino and Kent "We have got two veteran players who know how to play." Seems like Tavarez was the lynchpin in that deal, and he fell assbackwards into Kent. He deserves credit for doing the trade, but we can already see he has no eye for evaluating talent. He didn't know something the rest of us didn't know about Kent, merely that he was a "savvy veteran."  

If you have the words "general manager" before your name you can draft players. Its one of your responsibilities. How much better is drafting players in the 1st round and trading them  and have them turn out to be crap that drafting 1st rounders, trading them and having them be good? At least then it would show YOU KNOW HOW TO DRAFT. MY god, we're suppose to applaud him for not being able to evaluate high school and college talent at a level comparable with at least mediocre management around the league?

Great, he pulled Scott Eyre out of his bum. Remember Al Mormon? Christiansen? How long did we have to put up with Alan Freaking Embree throughing fastballs down the middle? You pick up enough crap you find a shiny stone once in a while. And big whoop he got a LOOGY, cause we all know championship teams are built around them. Gee, I'm sure he'll be able protect Barry in the lineup... Oh crap Brian, I think you forgot something...

With Herges and Brower DFA'd, Gascanitez on the DL, no more rubber arm Rodriguez WHAT ELSE COULD HE DO EXCEPT CALL UP MINOR LEAGUERS? This was not some revolutionary idea. It's standard baseball practice, unless we revert to putting the ball on the tee or having our manager underhand the ball to home. And with Felipe managing (another "savvy" move by Sabean), I wouldn't put it past him.

For every Randy Winn, there is a Ricky Ledee. For every Jason Schmidt, there is a Wilson Alvarez or SIdney Ponson. Now, does every deal he make have to make it to the baseball hall of fame? Of course NOT, but there is a reason he finds value were other people find none...because he continually picks UP people no one else wants (remember Hammonds? Eric Davis at the end of his career? Bring back Dunston three times with a career OBP of .296? Ruben freakin Rivera? Gotta be BS moves, cause the list is ten miles long of old guys who suck at getting on base) There's a point to having a few "savvy veterans", but constituting your entire roster year in and year out of over the hill crap and spare parts is ridiculous, and he deserves every single bit of the blame, just as if we had won back to back World Series championships he would deserve every bit of the credit, and he'd have a statue outside the ballpark next to Willie.

It's one thing not to gulp down the entire bowl of Moneyball koolaid, but my god, has this man seen a stat sheet? Does he know what OBP is? WHIP? Has he figured out that high numbers in the age column AREN'T A GOOD THING?! His arrogance and ambivalence towards even modifying his thinking a hair while the rest of baseball passes him by is unimaginable. But I guess being "competitive" every year because you have arguably the most DOMINANT PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME will give you reason to cock a smug smile and sign arguably the WORST HITTER OF ALL TIME to a 2 year contract to be your starting SS. Well, we saw him take Robb Nen deep, shit he must be the next Cal Ripken...

And for the unforgivable, unmatched ineptitude of failing to produce just ONE QUALITY POSITION PLAYER for us in 14 YEARS he should get the boot. Look around the leagues. Where is our Ryan Howard, or David Wright, Or Nick Swisher, Or Prince Fielder, or Matt Holiday? Hell, I'll take a freakin Khalil Greene or Ryan Freel. They're out there, but not one single one is in here. We don't have one single player to point to and say "that's our guy" or "that's a part of the future of our ballclub." At the risk of sounding like Chris Russo, GIMME ONE DAMMIT! JUST ONE!!!11

It's one thing to mortgage the future, but Sabean hasn't even had a house to take out the loan in the first place! You look around and you say "Wow, competitive baseball. That Scott Eyre is pretty good." I look around and I say "Wow, one of the most collosal wastes of talent ever. Who's playing first today?"

For all this and so much more he deserves to be fired.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 29, 2006 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Ahh, yes, the "full blame for failures and no credit for successes" style of criticism.  He does something wrong, it's because he sucks.  He does something right, it's because he got lucky.

You just can't argue with that logic.

Nice job by Sanchez, Accardo and Schmidt today, wasn't it?  Damn, I forget who brought all those guys in...maybe you can remind me?

by Skaldheim on Jun 29, 2006 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
As do I enjoy the "not read someone's post, then take 5 seconds to post a thoughtless response." I explicitly state Sabes should get all the credit for what he's done right. I even said he deserves credit for bringing Kent over. As does he deserve blame for having no one to take over after he left.

Geez, a couple of kids are getting their 15 mins in the sun, and suddenly Sabes is the guy who cured cancer for you. I really hope these kids are the real deal, but call me back after they've actually pitched for a week.

Can't argue with the logic that some relief arms make up for the last 4 years of anguish, mediocrity, and not one decent everyday player. That's ironclad, boy howdy.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 29, 2006 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Hey, who shat in this bed?!?!?

by dangjackson on Jun 27, 2006 6:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Some of his scrap-heap moves have been under-appreciated. Not sure if his percentages are better than other GMs, but consider:
  1. Hermanson
  2. Cruz, T. Walker
  3. Fassero (had a good year in '05)
  4. Wright, Greene
I think criticism of Sabes post-2002, other than the AJ trade, stems from his incremental moves without making a big splash. Alou could have been, but he's been injured too much. It's not that he's made a lot of bad moves (all GMs sign FA's who don't work out), he just hasn't dazzled us with the big move.
Me gustan tomar mis copas / Aguardiente es lo mejor / También la tequila blanca / Con su sal le da sabor

by leftymalo on Jun 27, 2006 8:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Hmm, somehow my zeroes disappeared. That should be oh-3, oh-4, etc.
Me gustan tomar mis copas / Aguardiente es lo mejor / También la tequila blanca / Con su sal le da sabor

by leftymalo on Jun 27, 2006 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Additionally, the fans have gotten a bit crazier since 2002, as far as I can tell.  Now that the Red Sox and the White Sox are off the schneid, we Giants fans are feeling the weight of the wait a lot more.

by Skaldheim on Jun 27, 2006 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Is there some reason we shouldn't have expected Alou to be hurt alot? First of all he's 40. And second of all he's regularly and consistently missed time to injury most every year for about the last decade.

by Roger on Jun 28, 2006 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Amen. I've been saying this since he was signed...
I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 28, 2006 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Is that Clay Hensley the same one starting for the Pads right now?

Also it should be noted that when Sabes did trade for a younger player, none of them have even sniffed the big leagues. Granted they weren't near top prospects, but that should give you an idea of his "eye" for young talent.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 27, 2006 9:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
yes
The Dodgers are evil.

by irwin on Jun 27, 2006 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Consider, though, that Hensley was a fringe prospect who took three years to reach the majors. Herges was a key member of the bullpen in 2003 and pitched great for the G's until he was asked to be emergency closer in 2004. No way you can count that trade against Sabean.
Me gustan tomar mis copas / Aguardiente es lo mejor / También la tequila blanca / Con su sal le da sabor

by leftymalo on Jun 27, 2006 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record

Fringe prospect? He was only 24, had a great year at Salem in 2002 (7-0 with 2.53 ERA and 9/K9). Struggled a bit in A+ ball in 2003 but still had 8/K9 and a 3-1 BB/SO ratio.

I agree Hensley wasn't considered prime grade material. But still a live arm with upside. If you want to see a fringe prospect, consider that Herges took 8 years to get to the majors when he debuted at 29 in 1999.

Herges put together three excellent years as a setup man from 99-02. And he pitched well for the Giants during the last three months of 2003.

But it was all downhill after that. Herges was avg'ing almost 8/K9 from 99-03. In 2004, he dropped to 5/K9. By 2005, he was down to 2.5-3/K9. You can blame it on Feeleep's decision to use him as a closer, but I think it was because he was 34 and he hit the wall as many guys do.

Hensley went on to have good years in AA and AAA in 2004 and 2005 as a starter. Then looked great at the end of 2005 with the Padres. Now he's in the Pad rotation and doing pretty well. He's only 27. Herges was DFA'ed, is now 36, and basically through.

So what looked like an OK deal in 2003 ended up with the Giants getting essentially three quality months out of Herges, while the Padres look to have a young, cheap, back-of-the-rotation starter who could provide at least a few years of decent performance and can also be used as trade bait.

I understand that the Giants were trying to get back to the Series in 2003 and thought Herges would bolster the bullpen in the short-term. He did. So the Giants were winning the trade for three months. But the trade went against them soon thereafter.

Even if the Giants still had Hensley, wouldn't make much of a difference to the 2006 team. But it would give them another live arm to use as trade bait to fill a need elsewhere. Instead, they've got nada since they had to DFA Herges and couldn't even pick up a prospect for him.

I look forward to the day when the Giants move away from the kind of short-term thinking they've exclusively engaged in for the past few years. Maybe once Bonds is gone, they can retool their philosophy.

by leewhee on Jun 28, 2006 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
When taken as whole, when you look at the young arms he's traded away, there's a lot more Aardsmas anf Fopperts than there are Lirianos and Hensleys.
Today's Spanish lesson: Como se dice "Blown save?" "Armando Benitez?" "Correctamundo!"

by Goofus on Jun 28, 2006 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
As well there should be, since there's many more Aardsmas in the world than Lirianos. But it only takes one, you still hear people talk about the Dodgers and one Roberto Clemente.  Other things: People never remember to name Linebrink for some reason, but also the Ortiz and Livan trade aways don't really come up smelling roses either. That's a lot of major league winshares going the wrong way.

by Roger on Jun 28, 2006 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
No way you can count that trade against Sabean.

First of all, Sabean is responsible for every trade he makes. If a trade ends up working out well, he deserves full credit.  If a trade blows up in his face, he deserves the blame.  

Second, you can go back and give all the justification you want for why "it seemed like a good idea at the time".  Justification can always be found.  

I mean, I'm sure that Chub Feeney could give you lots of good reasons why it seemed like a great idea to trade Orlando Cepeda for Ray Sadecki ("we need another good starting pitcher, we have a logjam at first base and Cepeda might not come back from his knee injury").  

And I'm sure that Horace Stoneham could've given you some great reasoning for trading away George Foster ("We're overstocked with outfielders and wait 'til you see this Frank Duffy kid!") and Gaylord Perry for Sam McDowell ("I need a new drinking buddy").

Every trade comes with its own steamer trunk stuffed with all the justification and rationale you could ask for. But rationale doesn't win ballgames. And "at the end of the day", a good GM is left with great players, while the GM who's lost his fastball is left with his justification and rationale, and a bunch of overpriced, undertalented players.

by tobias on Jun 28, 2006 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
I don't think Lefty was saying you can't hold that trade against Sabean because who knew how it would turn out, I think he's saying that you can't blame him because that trade wasn't designed to work out in the long run. It was a deal made with the short term in mind -- just like all deadline deals. A GM whose team is in contention trades an unknown but promising talent to a GM whose team is out of contention in exchange for a known talent. That's the way the deals work in a pennant race.

Sure, you'd like to give away a guy who never does anything, but the other guy is looking for someone who WILL do something someday. Nobody knows for sure with minor leaguers, so it's pretty much a crapshoot. What the GM whose team is in contention should be judged on first and foremost, is how the player he acquired perfroms in the pennant race and postseason. Herges pitched great down the stretch, and even better in the playoffs. He single-handedly kept the Giants hopes alive in Game 3 vs. the Marlins. The trade was a success in the short term. Even if Hensley turns out to be great, I didn't hear anybody complaining at the time of the deal (probably because they were more concerned with whether the Giants could win the World Series), so I don't see how you can complain now. (Same goes for Foulke and Howry.)

I notice in all the bad Giants trades over the years which you mention, none were made at the deadline in hopes of adding the final piece(s) to a championship team. because of this, I feel like we're talking apples and oranges here.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f***ing amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 28, 2006 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Well... I didn't actually say anything bad about the Herges trade.  I mean, I wasn't really even commenting on the Hensley-for-Herges trade per se, as much as I was commenting on the underlying thought that Sabean can't be held responsible for his actions.  I do agree that Herges was a good pickup in 2003.  But I don't agree that what happened after 2003 didn't really matter, because it was all about the short term.  Everything matters.  Sure, some things matter more than others.  But it does matter that Herges bombed out in 2004 and that Hensley is turning out to have been a pretty smart pickup for San Diego.

And I did say in my other post that the fact that the Giants were trying to win the NL West was an important mitigating factor in the trade of Foulke and Howry.  I mean, my personal feeling is that if Sabean were to trade away a future Hall of Famer for someone who clearly was the linchpin to the Giants finally winning a World Series, I'd be nominating Sabean for sainthood.  Not that my nomination would likely carry all that much weight with whoever makes those kinds of decisions.  But it'd still be a nice gesture, wouldn't it?

Also, "Nobody knows for sure with minor leaguers", I can agree with.  But "so it's pretty much a crapshoot", I don't.  And this I think is the crux of where I'm parting company with some here.  I believe that effective organizations, as led by effective GMs, are able to successfully evaluate players from statistics, scouting and inside info, and make informed decisions that elevate their work above the realm of the coin toss.

I think there was a time when the trades and free agent pickups that the Giants made showed a degree of genius.  But I haven't seen much of that at all since 2002.  It's like someone else said: "Sabean has jumped the shark".

(By the way, thanks for what you said about my Nen post.  I really appreciated that.)

by tobias on Jun 28, 2006 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
My post is two separate thoughts. I just wanted clarification on if he was the same guy.

I'm talking about when Sabes made trades to acquire young guys (Blank, Valdez, Alfredo Simon who I think was omitted.) None of them have come close to doing anything.

I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jun 28, 2006 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Sabean has done a great job trading pitching "prospects" over the years.  Nate Bump, Jason Grilli, Ainsworth, Vogelsong, etc.

Then again, that house of cards came crashing down with Liriano, Boof, and Nathan for AJ.  It was kind of a karmic payback.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 27, 2006 11:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
I'm sure Sabes was thinking:

"Hey, I've fleeced several teams with crappy pitching prospects; Nate Bump and Jason Grilli for Livan Hernandez, Kurt Ainsworth, Ryan Hannaman and Damien Moss for Sir Sidney Ponson, Ryan Vogelsong for Jason Schmidt, plus Joe Fontenot, Mike Pageler, and Mike Villano for Robb Nen. What could go wrong with this one? Three pitchers for a proven catcher? Brilliant!"

Well, um, not this time Brian.

Pedro Feliz: The homeless man's Matt Williams.

by danieljgrant on Jun 28, 2006 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
I think we might have judged Brian differently if only the Matt Blank trade had worked out.
Waiting for Travis, Nate, Marcus, and Nick P.

by Lyle on Jun 28, 2006 9:49 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

waivers
It's not a big deal, but Hermanson, Cruz (?) and Hammonds were not claimed off waivers.  They were signed as free agents after they had passed through waivers.  In the case of Hammonds, that makes a big difference since the Giants would have been paying him $7 million instead of $300,000 (both pro-rated for the rest of the year).  Hermanson was signed to a minor league deal.  I don't recall how Cruz was acquired without looking it up, but I don't think it was a waiver claim.

Neifi Perez was claimed off waivers, non-tendered and then signed as a free agent.  The most recent player claimed off waivers by the Giants is minor leaguer Jeff Miller this past winter, if you want to include that.

by steve S on Jun 28, 2006 10:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: waivers
What he said.  Cruz was dropped as Roger noted.  all were eventually signed as free agents.  
Lowry and Cain, then wish for more of the same

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 28, 2006 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Deivi had I believe been waived or given an unconditional release by the Devil Rays earlier in spring training and then signed with the Giants.

by Roger on Jun 28, 2006 10:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Sabes Record
Let's settle this once and for all:

I am teh awesome.

Felipe Alou on Pedro Feliz: "He's a baseball player."

by Brian Sabean on Jun 28, 2006 11:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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