"Everyone's doing it"
by manyoso on Mar 8, 2006 7:50 PM PST
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PrintI came over from lookoutlanding.com to see how Giants fans were reacting to the book.
You know, it is great to find that the majority of Giants fans can see to the end of their nose, but reading the comments, I see some folks who are still apologizing for Barry. I want to take issue with all those fans who would excuse this on the basis that it wasn't against the rules until recently. This is just a variation on the "Everyone's doing it" defense. And it is a load of crap.
You know who never juiced? Hank Aaron. Babe Ruth. Roger Maris.
To be sure, it's not all on Barry. McGwire doesn't deserve the record anymore than BB, but enough is enough. I don't want to see any previously juiced player flirting with Hank Aaron's record. That's why Barry needs to be retired.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Re: "Everyone's doing it"
There is a general sense of unfairness among Giants fans--why pick on Barry when so many others have committed the same crime? Karma. Barry made a lot of enemies in the media, and now they're getting payback. Sure, it's ugly, but it doesn't justify using PEDs by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyway, it's okay to believe that Barry did wrong, and still wish him well this season. I know I do, though I hope to hell he isn't on PEDs anymore...
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Re: "Everyone's doing it"
by PacBellBoozer on Mar 8, 2006 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
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He was an incredible ball player before he began taking. And now he has to live with this, plus who knows how much of the lame character he had in the last years was the roids.
And for what it is worth, I HATE RYAN FRANKLIN. And I can't stand that the M's organization has such a craptacular record when it comes to steroids. I would bet dollars to donuts that Boone was on the juice. Can't stand the guy.
My favorite players/heros are Edgar Martinez and Jamie Moyer and if they were caught I'd want Edgar's award renamed. I just don't like cheaters.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
- Barry's an idiot in general. I would not want to party with that guy, because he is clearly selfish and bitter about many things, and does not seem like a real loyal friend or team-player.
- The drugs he took were neither illegal nor banned by the MLB. Further, what's the problem? Morality?
- "Performance Enhancing Drugs" may be a misnomer for steroids and such (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, steroids allow for quicker reflexes, and quick growth of larger muscle mass. But they also increase the chance of injury. I believe that the term P.E.D. is too much of a weighted term that immediately makes users seem like cheats. What about legal drugs that improve the same functions in the body, aren't these P.E.D.'s in the same right?? I'm sure many MLBers use these FDA approved substances. Is there an enormous gap between the improvements in players from steroids and from legal substances? If a legal powder is found to be harmful in 5 years, does that make todays users of that substance "cheats" as well? Retrospection is perfect vision, yes.
by Chods on Mar 8, 2006 9:04 PM PST reply actions
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by keithr on Mar 9, 2006 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
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by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
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Re: "Everyone's doing it"
This really annoys me more than the steroid hype.
How the fuck do you know he's an idiot? What were his SAT scores? "Clearly selfish and bitter" - yeah, as portrayed by the sports media who
a) hate his guts
b) sell papers and magazines to readers who hate his guts.
I am not saying he would make a good freind, or husband, or butt-buddy or whatever... I'm just saying that YOU don't know.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
None of us are saying what he did wasn't wrong, but you have to realize that we have been living in this age of over-zealous and down right pathetic "reporting" for years now. Nothing that has been said recently is of the "ground-breaking" severity that the national media is making it out to be. These are all old and tired stories, cooked up right before the start of the season to spark everyone's interest and sell a few more books.
If took the time to read this little piece you'd find that many 'round these parts think a similar way.
~quickly steps down from the soapbox from which I evoked the almighty power of "THE GRANT"~
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
by orangeandblackattack on Mar 8, 2006 10:03 PM PST reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
I figured someone had to be the voice of reason on this lame diary. So I'm probably a little new to be calling on the wise prophet for some support, but someone had to put Dr. Mario in his place. Or is it Princess Toadstool??
by PacBellBoozer on Mar 8, 2006 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
The thing about steriods that the media doesn't report is just how common they are among normal people. Walk into any gym and you'll find at least a dozen guys who are currently using some sort of anabolic substances. Not just meat-heads or high school athletes either. I've known several older guys that are doctors, teachers, and software engineers that use the occasional cycle as part of their training regimen, or to help heal up an injury.
Athletes using anabolic steroids to help with their training isn't much of a story to me. Especially someone with the regimen that Bonds has. They're paid tons of money and are expected to perform at the highest possible level. I respect Barry much more than I do the player that shows up to training camp out of shape and overweight every year.
This whole media circus is really just a combination of ignorance about steroids, and a way to bring down Bonds.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Mar 9, 2006 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
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by knowitall55 on Mar 9, 2006 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
The thing is most of us are pretty beat down by the whole thing. We all pretty much suspect and expect that Bonds used some PED to assist him. The main question in our minds is whether there will ever be conclusive evidence, as we know that he will never confess. He would never give the writers the pleasure of that.
But we won't allow him to get railroaded either. We are motivated to learn more because we have more at stake, this is our team, he's our guy, so we study the fine details a bit more intensely than baseball fans who are not Giants fans. Most of us would agree that if anyone ever presented strong evidence that he used, we would accept it.
But this whole story that these writers weaved is a house of cards built upon the words of a woman scorned, who wants some money, who, according one poster here (I haven't corroborated it yet but I'll accept his word for now), has changed her story a number of times already.
And it is built on a man who was not happy about his relationship with Bonds. Anderson isn't the "great friend" most of the media has painted him to be, he was complaining a lot about Bonds treatment of him to Sheffield and Sheffield told about this in his SI interview. So there are ways of explaining the evidence found on Anderson as well as his taped reference to Bonds usage if we take the stance that he's a bit disgruntled, a bit jealous, he could have been leveraging his relationship with Bonds to pick up some customers; I put out some thoughts on that in the SI diary.
About Aaron's record, as far as I'm concerned, I think it could have belonged to someone else, so I have no problem with him losing it. If Ted Williams hadn't served our country TWICE, costing him the prime years of his career, based on his HR rate before and after, I calculated that he would have passed Ruth and could have conceivably been ahead of where Aaron is, depending on how well he hit. If Mays didn't serve our country, he too would have reached Ruth before Aaron would have, though Aaron would then have passed him.
Bonds was already hitting a lot of homers before he allegedly started using. He could have had 60 the year of the baseball strike, he and Williams would have had a nice Mantle-Maris duel before McGwire-Sosa had their run. So he has lost a number of homers due to strikes, which Aaron didn't have to put up with at all.
And because of the walks he's been getting, his homerun totals are not far off from what he should have been capable of doing on an annual basis, he was a healthy dude before so he should have been able to continue hitting at the same rate as before. And as I showed, there have been other hitters who got better as they aged, so it is not out of the realm of possibility that Bonds is one of those people.
He has worked very hard to get his body to its peak, much like Williams, who learned to do that in the Marines, and who also had a power spike in his late 30's and into his 40's. I read once that Williams said that he could have kept on hitting but his body wasn't letting him stay in the game, so hitting don't go away when you keep your body in shape. And read all the quotes on Bonds from respected hitters, even before all this nonsense they said that he had a great eye and control of the strikezone and batting stroke.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 9, 2006 10:46 PM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
"I don't want to see any previously juiced player flirting with Hank Aaron's record."
This is a perfectly reasonable thing to feel, and I don't fault you for it. Records are not moral judgements, however, and Bonds will never erase Aaron's remarkable grace and consistency under enormous stress.
If Bonds breaks Aaron's record (which is still a big "if" for an arthritic 41-year-old in the National League), "Bonds came out of the steroid era" will take its rightful place next to "Maris wasn't half the hitter Mantle was" and "Favre gave that last sack to Strahan" and "Babe Ruth only played in segregated leagues" and "Emmitt couldn't hold a candle to Payton" on barstools everywhere.
I'm sure we would all prefer it if Aaron's record was being challenged by the autistic kid who hit all those three pointers or the peppy cheerleader with the broken neck, but the reality is, neither of them are the best hitters of their generation. The best hitter of his generation is a surly SOB in a cloud of drug suspicion.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 3:22 AM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Props to you for the "peppy cheerleader with the broken neck" reference. I saw that clip and just shook my head, not knowing whether to laugh or roll my eyes.
Goofus
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Age - AB/HR
20 - 36
21 - 22
22 - 23
23 - 14
24 - 20
25 - 16
26 - 15
27 - 18
28 - 13
29 - 14
30 - 24
31 - 18
32 - 14
33 - 15
34 - 21
35 - 12
36 - 14
37 - 11
38 - 13
39 - 11
40 - 17
Here's a player entering the phase of life when he should deteriorate, age 35, and previous to that he could manage a mid-teen rate on occassion, but then for 5 straight seasons, he not only is consistently hitting in the teens, he pushes it even higher than he's ever done it before, almost double the rate at age 37 and 39 relative to what he was doing in his early 20's. Cheater? His name: Hank Aaron.
Darrell Evans and Ted Williams had similar spikes when they reached their late 30's. Of course, their spike was not as extreme as Barry Bonds, but neither were their workout regiment either nor were nutritional science as advanced either or even vitamin science. So do you point your finger at them too or do you acknowledge that there are players who have been blessed by their genetics to do well into their late 30's? And if so, do you acknowledge that it is plausible that Barry did it naturally, via extreme workouts he was documented to go through in Men's Health magazine?
Babe Ruth didn't have such a spike at a late age, but he was so good that even though he got a bit worse as he got older, he was able to hit in the low teens up to age 40, basically at the same rate as he was hitting from age 27-31, the so-called peak career years from most research on players' career peaks. So he was a freak too, in some ways, hitting HRs in his late 30's at about the same rate as he was during his "peak" years. Or was he a cheat as well, how could he hit as well at 40 as he could at 30?
And I was pretty shocked to find out that Seattle topped the list in steroid users caught and the A's were up there as well.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 9, 2006 4:24 AM PST reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
AB/HR is not a great measure, because it doesn't include unintentional walks, park factors (Aaron played at Fulton County Stadium during his later years, my friend), or any other contextual adjustments.
And remember, steroids make those mammoth workouts possible. That's the whole point of them.
Compared to the overwhelming evidence against Bonds, I'm simply not convinced.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
And, in particular, if you did that for Bonds, that would probably subvert all the arguments about his power spike, he had so many intentional, unintentional walks the past few seasons that no one could begin to calculate how many unintentional walks he really had. So I don't understand why PA and not AB.
And personally, I don't really care for how park factors are being calculated at the moment. There is a large potential for skewing because not everyone plays at the same parks anymore, it is an unbalanced schedule. Hence a park like the Royals Stadium, went from a relatively neutral park for its entire life to being a hitter's paradise in the early part of this decade because of the switch to an imbalanced schedule, the greater density of pitchers parks in their division, plus the addition of the Tiger's extreme pitchers park, changed their park factor from the 97-103 range to 110 in 2001, 117 in 2002, 113 in 2003. Then just as suddenly, which I'm not sure what caused it yet, in 2004 and 2005, it was 95 and 99, respectively. ALL AT THE SAME PARK: the last time any of the dimensions were changed was in 1995. (data all baseball-reference.com) So I have a real problem relying on park factors.
Even Fulton-County Stadium was a neutral park its first four seasons, then suddenly it became a hitters park. There was no change in dimension in 1970 to account for that change, though there was some minor changes in 1969, but that year was still neutral.
If I had to guess, it would be that a particular player was suited to playing there and started skewing the numbers around.
My point about the workouts is that there are new equipment (nautilus machines) and techniques that have been discovered since the days of Evans, Aaron, and Williams, are you telling me that none of that help people gain weight and build muscles more efficiently? If not, then why is everyone using them? And are you telling me that there were no advances in nutrition that would help people get an edge over the past 30 years?
I'm not saying Bonds is innocent, I'm just saying the evidence has too many holes to convince me, it is a house of cards built one atop another, if one falls, they probably all fall. The preponderance makes me think and wonder what's going on, but nothing has convinced me yet.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 9, 2006 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Martin - check out this article
There was another implication that the author missed, I believe. If you look at the 40+ category, there was actually a drop in the rate from pre-juiced to juiced, and even for 30-40, the rise was not as much as the other categories. That implies that there were a significant number of pitchers who juiced up and was able to take on the big sluggers who hit over 30 homers, outnumbering them at the 40+ category and big enough to put a dent in the 30-40. Because there is the push for more homers by hitters juicing up and there is the opposite pull for less homers by pitchers juicing up. But there obviously was a preponderance of users among hitters or the power spike would not show up across the all the middle categories from 10-30 so broadly or so high a magnitude in the rise from pre to juiced.
I wonder if he did this study for, say, ERA downspikes, if it would yield anything interesting like the data for homers.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 9, 2006 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
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And for what it is worth, I can't stand the M's who juice. When Ryan Franklin pitches, I root for the other team. He's a cheater.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Just because your team is in the crapper and your fans could care less, doesn't mean you can spew your misguided "truths" amongst those of us who DO have a clue.
Good-bye to you dear sir...I SAID GOOD-BYE !!
by PacBellBoozer on Mar 9, 2006 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
I think Manyoso made some good points and expressed his opinion in a non pressing and civil way...I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
So although I think the discussion has been fun, he wasn't being that civil. He was looking to pick a verbal fight more or less.
Beat it
Frankly, who gives a rats ass what you want? Most people here don't apologize for Barry, we just don't care. There are lots of people who used steroids. I am almost positive that Randy Johnson has used steroids, I'm guessing that Jay Buhner did as well, and Bret Boone isn't without suspicion. Are you going to apologize for them?
In fact due to my suspicions about Bret Boone I want to put an asterisk next to the 2001 regular season for Seattle.
Re: Beat it
But it is bullshit to say that some people here aren't apologizing for this crap. They most definitely are.
Then again, a lot of folks aren't and that is to be commended. I get that you guys love the Giants. And I'm sure it has been a royal pain in the ass to keep hearing about this shit over and over. I feel for you in that regard. Then again, you should try being a M's fan. Things suck up here too :)
I'll I'm saying is that BB shouldn't be allowed to touch Hank Aaron's record.
Re: Beat it
If he passes Ruth and Aaron you won't have to acknowledge him as the HR king, and you'll have a lot of people in that corner with you. But I get angry at the idea that you want him to leave the game just because it would make you feel better about the record.
Barry's certainly an issue
I find that most Giants fans DO care about this! The difference is that most of us are willing to discuss such issues as the complexities or PEDs, the definition of cheating, or the varying levels of evidence.
I find it somewhat ironic that Mariner fans would be outraged at baseball's anti-Christ. Last time I checked they had more players actually test positive for illegal PEDs--because, many PEDs are ALLOWED by baseball--than the Giants. Jesus, just because your management didn't sign A-Rod to a long term deal early and then went and signed Jarrod Washburn and Adrian Beltre to fix your current problems...that's not San Francisco's fault.
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 10:16 AM PST reply actions
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
I pull for the Giants and for Bonds. I defend Bonds in the view that I think that he's the sole target of a sanctimonious witchhunt. a sanctimonious witchhunt with bigger fish that haven't (and probably won't be) been touched. I argue that "steroids" have to be defined and that even once they're defined that they were technically allowed in MLB until recently. I point out that MLB is now in the business of sanctioning and, in effect, distributing "supplements" to its players. AND I care. This issue is complicated, for sure.
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
One of the things that really gets to me is how much harder Bonds makes it to be proud of "My San Francisco Giants" (as the team has been calling it).
The excitement and thrill he creates with his bat is now outweighed by the cloud he hangs over the team.
Yes, I KNOW others have done it, but I prefer to worry about my own house first.
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
Not to mention the cloud that Santiago, Rios, Benard and Estelella brought. All those dudes were BALCO clients too. (Might be wrong about Estelella, but he seems to be a PED poster child.)
What a mess.
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
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I love coaching my son's Little League team evry year and get just as much of a thrill out of one of them making the play of the game as I do any of the Giants.
I enjoy seeing the local high school team play and wondering how far a star player will go.
I enjoyed many players from different teams over the years like Gwynn, Morgan, Ripken (my son's named after him) and yes, Bonds. I love seeing footage of players before my time; Mays, Mantle, Robinson and Aaron.
I love the Giants, but if they'd moved to Tampa Bay, I'd still be a fan.
To me, the game is the thing.
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
I honestly didn't know how that was going to turn out for me personally... I'm not sure I would have been much of a fan after that. Thank God I never had to find out.
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
I love Barry because of the impact he has on the Giants winning games. If he is out there helping us win he's my man.
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
Why do you all think I'm attacking the Giants?? I'm not.
I can't stand Ryan Franklin or any other Mariner on the juice. Same goes for Boone or any other cheater out there.
My personal heros: Edgar Martinez and Jamie Moyer.
Were they caught with steroids or corked bats I'd turn on them just as ferociously as I have Ryan Frankline, Mark McGwire... and yes, BB.
Barry's certainly an issue
I do wonder though, what would you think if Bonds played and played relatively well THIS season?
Also, I happen to think that players like Ryan Franklin are the more likely users of a "steroid." Why? Their marginal players, struggling, and doing questionable things to stay in the show. That aside, I wouldn't hate Ryan Franklin for what he did. Punish him for his transgressions and move on. Hell, Franklin can now take some MLB-authorized "supplements" and continue trying his best.
Best news: April's almost here
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
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Re: Barry's certainly an issue
by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 9, 2006 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Barry's certainly an issue
As for me... I grew up with the M's. I was introduced to them via my Grandpa who never misses a game on radio or tv. They are a family passion as my grandmother on the opposite side of the family would watch them even after she lost her hearing and her sight was going. Right up till she passed away a year ago she was Ichiro's biggest fan.
Edgar is my favorite player. We share the same birthday. If he was caught juicing (in the same sense that Barry has been 'caught') I'd lose complete respect for him. Wouldn't mean that I wouldn't have nostalgia, but MAN would it hurt. I would be angry as hell. I just do not like cheaters.
I can respect how you feel, but if you are saying the true test of a fan is whether they are willing to put up with juicers on their team... well, I don't think you really mean that.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
I remember the first time I ever saw Barry Bonds play in person, in the spring of 1993. I had never seen anything like it, and I knew at that moment that he was the greatest player of my lifetime, and possibly the greatest I would ever see. His bat was so astonishingly fast, his pitch identification so perfect, and his focus so complete that he was playing on a different level. That day he went 4 for 5 with three doubles. Every single plate appearance resulted in a laser to right field; one just happened to be right at the defender.
I wish Barry Bonds wasn't the adult child of an alcoholic with a colossal persecution complex. I wish he had had the presence of mind to simply be the best player in baseball without messing with it. I wish he hadn't begun using steroids after the 1998 season (which I believed in 1999, and believe today). I wish he had stayed lean and strong, and that we were talking about 600/600 today, rather than Ruth and Aaron. None of those wishes will come true - but nothing will take away that first game in 1993.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
And this: http://legalball.com/MLB_News_Cheating_Culture
I believe you will find the name Hank Aaron in the list of cheaters. How many homeruns did Aaron hit while under the influence of "greenies"? Please. This kind of stuff has been going on for years. To now blow a gasket over is plain silly.
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
However, would it change anyone's mind if you knew that it was as or more prevalent for pitchers to use than hitters? How are guys supposed to catch up with juiced-up pitchers if not on the stuff themselves? As with most of this stuff, I've had to oversimplify the whole issue to make a point, but it really baffles me how hardly anyone talks about the pitchers. It's not like no pitchers have been caught. Maybe it will take a big name guy getting caught, and if it just happens to be a goggle-wearing reliever, so much the better...
by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Mar 10, 2006 9:17 AM PST reply actions
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
Re: "Everyone's doing it"
There has yet to be a study that shows that roids are a health risk in adult males
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