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Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

Youth movement

by JakeS on Dec 7, 2006 8:07 PM PST

So, as well know Sabean has pledged to "get younger" in the off-season. The rotation isn't all figured out yet, but the lineup appears pretty set, so we can get a good look at what he means.

Here's a list of the players who lead the Giants in PA at each position in '06 and their Opening Day ages (which I calculated myself so might be a few days off).

C: Eliezer Alfonzo (27 years, 55 days)
1B: Shea Hillenbrand (30 years, 249 days)
2B: Ray Durham (34 years, 122 days)
3B: Pedro Feliz (30 years, 339 days)
SS: Omar Vizquel (38 years, 343 days)
OF: Barry Bonds (41 years, 252 days)
OF: Steve Finley (41 years, 21 days)
OF: Randy Winn (31 years, 297 days)

That gives us an average lineup age (discounting the pitcher) of 34 years, 164 days.

In 2007, our Opening Day lineup will most likely be

C: Bengie Molina (32 years, 256 days)
1B: Rich Aurilia (35 years, 214 days)
2B: Ray Durham (35 years, 122 days)
3B: Pedro Feliz (31 years, 339 days)
SS: Omar Vizquel (39 years, 343 days)
OF: Barry Bonds (42 years, 252 days)
OF: Dave Roberts (34 years, 306 days)
OF: Randy Winn (32 years, 297 days)

Giving us an average lineup age of * drumroll * 35 years, 266 days, or more than a full year older.

KUTGW Brian Sabean!

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Youth movement

By the way, I totally have assignments I should be working on.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Dec 7, 2006 8:04 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Once again the SF Giants are going to make that one last push with Bonds as their centerpiece. Magowan & Co you outright lie to me. How is this 2007 squad younger and healthier? You have set back the rebuilding of this franchise a couple of seasons by continuing the trend of signing Bonds and signing vets around him. You continue to not play any of your homegrown talent or refuse to trade for youthful talent in the league. Shame on you. You have lost my trust.

by wilriv21 on Dec 7, 2006 8:09 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

The homegrown talent has to be grown before you can play them. Seriously, what other options did the Giants have? Sabean actually has done a pretty decent job of filling the roster with tradeable short term players, while stockpiling early round picks.

by mxmob33 on Dec 7, 2006 8:58 PM PST up reply actions

Tradeable short term players

Under Sabean's tenure he will apprentice howegrown talent for a couple of years before the opportunity for them to be a starter. Sabean's MO is to trade youth for vets. The Giants have a poor record of drafting players.

by wilriv21 on Dec 7, 2006 10:05 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Thus it begins

"In the Autumn of his Winter, comes man's last mad surge of youth".

by Ghost11 on Dec 7, 2006 8:35 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

I agree we should have started rebuilding this year instead of going for one more with Barry. We should have resigned Schmidt if we are going this way. I think Frandsen and Linden should be starting this year instead of waiting around another year, but, this is not what we are going to get this year.Granted, the Giants will be more interesting to watch then a rebuilding year.

Keeping a close eye on the Giants AAA players

by Andy In Fresno on Dec 7, 2006 8:57 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

When you keep virtually the same roster, of course it's going to be a year older.

by KCE on Dec 7, 2006 9:05 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

I'll bet once you count the pitching staff into the age equation, plus the bench, the average age will be lower.

But if any of you really believed that he was going to do that, all I can say is "how?" There was no young players to get on the free agent market and we had 11 free agents, odds were that any reduction of age would be minimal, even if we, miracle of miracles, traded for a Vernon Wells, as rumored somewhere, because that would have took away our young pitchers and force us to spend on older pitching.

I always thought he was talking more philosophically, for long range plans. If you noticed, the contracts are relatively short, 2 1-year, 2 2-years, 2 3-years.

They will have at least $21M available from Bonds and Feliz going free agent, plus Vizquel, Matheny, Sweeney, and Worrell will be off the books, for another $12M or so, unless they resign Vizquel, who asked for an extension recently when interviewed about Durham, plus some uptick on salaries for some of the backloaded contracts. That should be good enough to pick up a young stud or two, if available, on the free market. And we'll see how many more of our prospects develop and contribute.

Now sign the big boy....

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 7, 2006 9:10 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Another thing people may be overlooking is the fact that this year, we don't have to give up our first round pick for ANY of the signings we make. While this may be true again next season, it could be a reason to justify going after Molina and Richie this year, as opposed to someone like Byrnes or whomever next season.

The more holes the team can fill for next season - without mortgaging the future - this year, the better. Sabean is doing just that by signing people that may be useful beyond this season to reasonable deals while there isn't a huge penalty for it and filling other needs with only one-year contracts.

I'm glad to see the big guy back. My favorite Giant ever may just end his career a Giant, rather than end up somewhere else. I wasn't even born yet at the time, but it must have sucked when the team shipped Mays out.

by sfgfan on Dec 7, 2006 9:22 PM PST up reply actions

Don't Say It

But if any of you really believed that he was going to do that, all I can say is "how?"

If someone gives their word, or even more so puts it on their company letterhead their brand name is on the line. Their credibility is on the line.

If you are not going to do it, if you do not believe it or can not do it then do not say it. You will lose integrity and credibility.

by wilriv21 on Dec 7, 2006 10:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

absolutely. This was Mgowan and Sabeans pledge to season ticket holders. I was skeptical how, but i figured it would get done. To be outright lied to really pisses me off.

This team could have gotten younger a number of ways.

We could have given freddy lewis a chance in center instead of aging dave roberts. Sure we would have got less steal, but it would have been exciting to see what he could do. He turned in a very fine season last year in fresno and played well once he was brought up.

Frandsen at 2B. I love Durham, im happy we got him. But then again, i would have loved to see frandsen there.

Bonds in LF Lewis in CF Winn in RF and Linden with Finleys role of last year. I think this team would be comprable to our current team, and it would be a lot of fun to watch.

It wouldn't be a winning season, but at least Sabean wouldn't have beeen a liar.

I've been suffering from post traumatic stress disorder ever since Game 6.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Dec 7, 2006 10:39 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

A competitive team means much more to me than Sabean's veracity.

by mxmob33 on Dec 7, 2006 11:07 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

of course, but i think with lewis instead of roberts and frandsen instead of durham we could still be competitve, and a lot more exciting.

The team how it is is boring and familiar. All i can really get excited for is Bonds, Cain, and when Lincecum gets brought up.

I've been suffering from post traumatic stress disorder ever since Game 6.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Dec 7, 2006 11:12 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

Ah, forget all that happy horsesh-- I was babbling about below here... mxmob33 got right to the point. Well said.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Dec 7, 2006 11:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

Look, I get the complaints about Frandsen not starting, and Linden not having a prominent role (Heck, I wanted both to happen)....but Fred Lewis starting in center?

Lewis has to do a few things before earning that:

* Have a better than decent season in a hitter's league and park like Fresno.

* Show he can make use of (by far) his best tool: his speed. Part of this past season was definitely the lingering effects of an early hamstring injury, but he needs to show he can be healthy.

* Stop hitting like a platoon outfielder (.225/.336/.363 against left handers, only .291/.386/.481 against RHP)

* But most of all, he needs to actually play in center the vast majority of the time before I'm convinced he's ready to start at such a defensively key position.

I like Lewis' tools, and I think he could be a good player, but he's not a center fielder yet, and he'll have to be to have any hope of reaching his potential.

by BruteSentiment on Dec 8, 2006 2:25 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

I agree 100%. On a team with real prospects, Fred Lewis wouldn't even be on the radar. The only reason people talk about some of our "prospects" is because we don't have anyone good to get excited about.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Dec 8, 2006 7:14 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

A point I've been making in Steve's diaries for a looooong time now.

by Roger on Dec 8, 2006 7:53 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

I wouldn't say that. Lewis isn't a great prospect but he's not a Lance Niekro or a Jason Ellison.

DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Dec 8, 2006 9:59 PM PST up reply actions

Missing the Point

"It wouldn't be a winning season, but at least Sabean wouldn't have beeen a liar."

See, that's the crux of the matter. People see the one statement and hold the Giants's feet to the fire but missed the main statement of the offseason: the Giants's goal is to be competitive in 2008, and they want to get younger and healthier while doing it. They stressed this over and over again, particularly in context regarding whether Bonds comes back or not. But really, people didn't see that when push comes to shove, winning (in the Giants thinking) comes before younger and healthier?

Frandsen, Linden, Lewis, I would would have been OK with that but it would not be a winning season, as you acknowledge. That's an untenable position regarding their statements to the public to put together a winning team.

Now some may argue that the team as constituted is not a winning team - and I would not argue against that stance, the team has a chance to stink it up again like 2005 and 2006, perhaps in a whole new different way.

Now sign the big boy....

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 10, 2006 10:04 PM PST up reply actions

Giants can be good

But I think that the Giants also have a good chance for a good, competitive (again, a relative term, in the NL West for the title) team, and it is all based on their young pitching. If they deliver as they had when healthy, we have a really good starting trio of Cain, Lowry, and Morris. Add in a legit leadoff guy starting off the offense, and a nice middle of lineup in Bonds and Durham, and it is a nice lineup, not earthshaking, but nice.

GiantJim did a nice summary below about the Giants, I wish I had written that. I would add that Bonds, while still the centerpiece of the Giants offense, is no longer the centerpiece of the team. He's not going to hit like he did in 2001-2003, but he'll still be damn good.

Now sign the big boy....

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 10, 2006 10:11 PM PST up reply actions

The Giants new centerpiece: Starting Rotation

The centerpiece of the team is now the starting rotation, and led by Cain and Lowry. How can you miss that? Hopefully Lincecum will join them and maybe Sanchez. Teams are going crazy signing middle of rotation guys to $10-11M contracts, which means that a "good" rotation has $35-45M of performance (not necessarily salary) devoted to the starting 3 of their rotation. How good would it be if we can trot out Cain, Lowry and Lincecum for the next 4-5 seasons for less than $10M per season? And maybe Sanchez to boot?

And how valuable will pitchers like that be? I've written about this long ago before, but the Giants focus on pitching is a true blessing with the free agent market going crazy like this. Pitchers are very fungible commodities, I can trade one for almost any position in the field, but if you have a hitter, then you need to find a team that 1) has the player you need, and 2) need the hitter you have. Pitching is always in need and they can be used in a large variety of ways, they can literally fill one of 5-10 positions on your pitching staff, depending on what you need.

Now sign the big boy....

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 10, 2006 10:11 PM PST up reply actions

Bondsy is the Centerpiece

Was and still is. He will bat 3 or 4, media will be there day in and day out, the PR dept will hype him. The entourage might be smaller, there may be a new designer drug but Bondsy will tell Bochy and Magowan how to manage him.

by wilriv21 on Dec 10, 2006 10:29 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

I can't argue with this at all, Wil. It was made clear that the team was going to be younger and healthier, and that Barry wasn't going to be the centerpiece. They didn't really get younger, Healthier? A little if at all. They let two injury risks (Alou and Schmidt) walk, but brought back two more (Durham and Bonds). And looking at this roster, Bonds is the centerpiece, the tablecloth, and most of the placemats.

I am happy with their general results so far (no contracts over $20M in total value despite the crazy market, and no young pitchers traded). You can't get younger overnight when you have a barren farm system and only one veteran (Vizquel) with significant trade value. The youthiest thing they can do now would be to give 1,000 at-bats to the likes of Linden (400? Roberts doesn't play against lefties, and Bonds will sit a lot), Frandsen (350? Durham, Vizquel, and Aurilia, are, um, old) and Alfonso (250?), but I'm not holding my breath. And if they sign a veteran fourth outfielder (Jay Payton?) or utility guy (Vizcaino is still available), I will be furious.

The fact is, they were very clear about what they were going to do this winter, and they didn't do it, and I can't fault you for being upset about it.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Dec 7, 2006 11:12 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

exactly, at this point there is absolutely no reason to sign veteran backups. Whats done is done, the veterans are the starters. What we need is to get Frandsen, Linden, and Lewis significantly playing time when the old-timers need breaks.

The last thing we need is Jay Payton or Mark Loretta taking away time from Linden and Frandsen

I've been suffering from post traumatic stress disorder ever since Game 6.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Dec 7, 2006 11:15 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Don't Say It

Great post, Pants. I agree with Martin and yourself that the internal pieces to going younger, at least for postion players, just was not there for the Giants. The minor league system is pretty bleak. What the Giants did was a reasonable alternative, signing short term relatively cheap, tradable FA contracts.

While asthetically, and by prinicple, I have a tought time stomaching the Feliz, Molina and Roberts contracts, the future damage will be minimal. And maybe even the Molina and Roberts signings are more pragmatic than I am giving them credit for.

Really, so far, so good, for this off season. The Giants actually appear to be forming a base of young pitching to build around. And so far, none of them have been traded.

With Bonds as the "centerpiece" the offense should be better than bad and, with luck, reasonable. A .500 finish is within sights and hopefully their young pitching matures.

2008 will still be a major work in progress but at least we have the potential to be on the right track.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Dec 8, 2006 10:30 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

I want Sabean gone as soon as possible - I'm terrified he's going to trade Tim the Enchanter for Darren Oliver or Orlando Hernandez at mid-season. He's been extremely lucky with Bonds, and his record since 2002 is downright awful.

by Aadik on Dec 7, 2006 9:25 PM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Lincecum is going nowhere except into the Giants rotation this year or next. And I thought 2003 (100-61) and 2004 (91-71) were pretty damn good years. The last two sucked, but without Bonds and Alou half the time that was to be expected.

yob

by Sayhey on Dec 7, 2006 10:24 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

The youth movement will just be coming by the end of July at the trade deadline. Sabean had to fill holes in the starting lineup and he had nothing in the minors to use. Free agency was the only way to even field a team. I seriously doubt that Durham will be in a Giants uniform by the end of the season. Same goes for Vizquel and maybe even Aurilia or (Please GOD!!) Feliz. He can trade away his aging free agents at the trade deadline for prospects and we can start rebuilding. Add in all the compensatory draft picks we get this year and we could be the Florida Marlins in 2009!

by joebirdie3 on Dec 7, 2006 11:39 PM PST reply actions

It's started.

I agree with Martin. I think that you're seeing it and it'll be a lengthy process. What "young" free agent was Sabean supposed to sign this year? I mean, we all bitch and moan (usually with reason) at Sabean, but what was he supposed to do this off-season.

As I've said before, I believe that he's done an okay job this off-season; I also believe that he's responsible for the mess that we're in by failing to do his job to diversify the roster over the last X number of years. Ultimately he's responsible for the roster, that I know. I have a lot of problems with Sabean's choices (and they are choices), but this year alone he's done okay.

Hell, even though drafts are notoriously unreliable, he has picked up draft picks this year. That's something that I'd assume most of us want.

Also, as Joebirdie3 wrote, wait 'till July.

We have a good young pitching staff, promise there too, some short term (2 to 3 years) contracts, and one Barry Bonds back. Barry will leave next year and we'll have his $18 million or so to sign our Vernon Wells or Adam Dunn or someone to be the cornerstone for the future.

...bastard still should have traded Schmidt. That still irks me.

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 8, 2006 7:12 AM PST reply actions

Re: It's started.

I agree with you (and various people above). Where were these younger players supposed to come from? Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Carlos Lee? That isn't a youth movement. It's a suck movement.

I will be right there complaining with people in July if we are 10 games out and Sabean isn't trading every vet whose contract doesn't expire after 2007 for prospects, but right now, the only way he could have made the team younger was to pay even more for the crap FAs available this year, play non-prospect organizational filler, or trade away our young pitching for young position players. I think Sabean wanted the team to be younger, but we are lucky that he didn't pay even more ridiculous money to guys like Juan Pierre to do it.

Plus, he may not be done.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Dec 8, 2006 7:24 AM PST up reply actions

Re: It's started.

Absolutely. It has to be a long term vision, because we don't have the resources for it to be anything else.

However, it still comes down to Sabean implementing it. At some point you do have to trust to play unproven guys. Someone above made the point that they decided to go one more year with Barry and surround him with older guys. I think the opposite might be true, with every Rich Aurilia/Dave Roberts signing they took one more step towards forcing themselves to resign Bonds because those older role player guys are only worth signing if you have a Barry in the middle.

So it will be interesting to see if when the time comes, Sabes can take the leap of faith with young talent. His buddy Ned is having a heck of time doing it right now in LA with a whole bushelfull of guys who may be ready.

by Roger on Dec 8, 2006 7:57 AM PST up reply actions

Re: It's started.

Right, it's not a given that this is the beginning of a rebuliding process, but if played correctly, it has the earmarks.

I still see a possability of a Klesko signing, but only to replace Sweeney (who would then be traded) on the roster. He would alternate with Aurilia and spell Bonds some. I'm not saying it's what I want, or tht it would even help much, but it would be very Sabean. He's yet another piece which could be traded by mid-season.

Even the Sexson trade is a possablity, but it would likely cost at least Lowry, so I'm not hoping for it.

But even those deals would be more of the same. Stop-gap proceedures until the rebuilding process, gets to a competitve level, probably at least a few years away.

Right now, we still have Morris, Roberts, Winn, Molina, Aurilia and Durham signed for 2008, so the rebuliding process looks like a multi-year transitonal phase.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Dec 8, 2006 10:47 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

As of right now, Alphonszo is the back-up C, Linden the 4th OF, and Frandsen the utility guy. All three should see plenty of AB's, and 40+ starts- likely more if/when one of the ancient starters is injured. Whatever way you slice it, the young position players will get more of a chance in 2007 than previous years. Neikro, Ellison, and Lewis will be battling it out for "25th man," yet another opportunity for young players to contribute.

Young pitchers comprise 75% of the staff (everyone except Benitez, Worrell, and Morris). Cain, Lowry, Sanchez, Hennessey, Correia, Wilson, Sadler, Taschner, Misch, Threets, Linecum, etc. will make-or-break the success of the 2007 Giants. In a season that is all about the HR chase, the all star game, and the closing of the Barry window, some young guns will have a chance to launch their MLB careers.

More than 1/2 the Giants opening day roster looks to be young, home grown, cheap talent. True, no young players look to be starting- but do any of them really merit anything other than a bench role to start the season?

by Kid Fresh on Dec 8, 2006 8:28 AM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

They're still talking, however, about possibly adding another 1Bman, which would push either Feliz or Aurilia to a utility role and cut out Frandsen.

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Dec 8, 2006 9:28 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

I agree. We won't know what the final roster will look like for awhile.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Dec 8, 2006 10:48 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

As has become a more common sentiment on the site recently, it has become clear that we at least have the potential for an indirect youth movement via trades in July. We could really pick up some good prospects at that point.

If you want to be really optimistic, you can look at this as a win-win, because if the team is winning, it's a win, and if the team is losing, we win by picking up prospects. I know that's a stretch, but that's what we have at this point. Like last year, though, the danger is that we're very mediocre, but not far enough out of the race in order for them to want to make the trades.

The tough part is that the types of deals Sabean has gotten for veterans like Aurilia just aren't available with pitchers this year, so we're in a more difficult place with pitching. I can't think of much here, except for really scouring the league for guys who have fallen out of favor for trivial reasons, guys who need motivation to get back in shape, and relievers who did well as starters and could do it again.

by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Dec 8, 2006 9:24 AM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

David Wells, is proabably as good as it gets for the short term reasonably priced veteran altenatives you are talking about.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Dec 8, 2006 10:50 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Everytime I see the usual names (suspects) that the Giants should play I want to scream. I don't think these guys are ready for PRIME TIME. Everybody and their brother complains about the Giants not playing the young guys, well how about Cain, I think he showed he was ready for Prime Time. Lowry, again he showed he was ready. Some of the relief corps gave indications they were to be counted on so they played them.

I hate to say this, but the Dodgers have at least three guys Kemp, Loney, Ethier(sp)that are more ready than the three that are usually mentioned.

If there is anything that should be overhauled on the Giants its their scouting dept. and their minor league operations. It's shameful that we don't have one or two young guys coming up every year. I also hate to show my age, but when the Giants moved from NYC. Their starting lineup had Orlando Cepeda, rookie, Jimmy Davenport, rookie. I not sure about Spencer, Kirkland, Brandt(59) Then the following years. and I only mean in the next year or two they had Alou, Wagner, Marichal, McCovey and then Hart, Perry, Haller, Bonds, and Tito Fuentes to name a few.

Given the Market I don't know what the Giants were so suppose to do this year. However if they had a farm we wouldn't be asking these questions.

P.S. Fresno for the most part is a disgrace.

by Buzzword on Dec 8, 2006 9:29 AM PST reply actions

Re: Youth movement

Just think how pissed off we'd be if we had Loney, LaRoche, Kemp, and Ethier and Sabean was signing the Luis Gonzalez and Juan Pierres of the world to take PA away from them.

by Roger on Dec 8, 2006 11:51 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Youth movement

I wholeheartedly agree. In today's economic envrionment, building homegrown players is as important as ever.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Dec 8, 2006 10:52 AM PST reply actions

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