HELP!!! -- The greatest players of all-time

Let's see...

1. Babe Ruth
   
2. Barry Bonds
   
3. Willie Mays (I could live with either Bonds or Mays #2)
   
4. Honus Wagner (those numbers from a plus-defense SS?)
   
5. Ted Williams (gets credit for lost war years)
   
6. Ty Cobb
   
7. Tris Speaker (plus-defense CFer with incredible batting numbers)
   
8. Nap Lajoie (I admit - hard to characterize defense from that era)
   
9. Eddie Collins
   
10. Mickey Mantle (could be higher - injuries/booze took toll, but peak is amazing + CF defense)

Joe Morgan (peak is absolutely incredible, but done too early)
Rogers Hornsby (definitely had the bat - glove keeps him out of top 10)
Alex Rodriguez (needs time - appears to be declining offensively and defensively - we'll see)
Josh Gibson/Oscar Charleston (I don't think I am qualified to assess Negro Leagues players properly)
Lou Gehrig (definitely could be on list - definitely a peak over career guy)
Rickey Henderson

This is tough.  I would argue that modern players are better in general than old-timers, so if you put Rickey Henderson back in time, for example in the 1920s, he probably cleans house.  Same with Joe Morgan.  That is definitely unfair as far as this list goes, though, because it is speculative and would penalize guys for playing in an earlier era.  I also don't have any 19th century guys because the level of competition is spottier and the game really was different - underhand pitchers?  Pitchers 50 feet from the plate?  I don't know what to do with that.

I also have trouble realizing that my list has no one from the 70s and 80s.  I just don't have tools at my disposal to rank any of those guys high enough, even though I saw so many of them play.  Maybe the conventional wisdom and managing strategies hurt them.  More likely is that the playing environment hurt them.  I have read that with the spacious multipurpose stadiums and artificial turf, speed and defense were at a premium.  As such, there weren't as many spots available on the teams for great hitters with spotty defense.  One would think that the truly great hitters of the era would have found themselves at 1B and 3B, though.  Maybe too many managers preaching aggressiveness at the plate hurt too.  I don't know what to make of it.  Part of it is probably just luck/cyclical variation in the distribution of the greatest players.

One final thought:  I wouldn't have Hank Aaron top-15, and maybe not even top-20.  He had a very long career, and is definitely high up on a total career value list, but he just isn't as good as so many other guys.  That is hardly a knock - he was a great player.

...alright, i subtracted for steroids.  I guess I should be consistent and move Barry down to #6.

His defense was good, but not superb.  He got on base, but not as much as the other guys on the list.  He didn't have HR power.  He had some steals, but at a poor success rate.  His peak years aren't as good as the peak years of the other guys on the list.  Mostly, he hit singles.

By just about every measure, he wasn't as good as the other guys we are talking about.  His career OPS+ is only 118 (around 125 if you cut his career off at 1979).  His career SLG is only .409 and he didn't hit many HR.  His career OBP is .375, but even his peak years in OBP don't match up to the other guys.

Think of it this way:  he played 2B, 3B, OF, and 1B during his career.  Would you rather have Bonds in LF or Rose?  Nap Lajoie (or Morgan, or Hornsby, or Collins) at 2B or Rose?  Gehrig or Rose at 1B?  Mike Schmidt at 3B or Rose?

This isn't to say Pete Rose wasn't an excellent player; he has three seasons with a WARP above 10 and is a definite Hall of Famer, he's just not a top 10 all-time player.