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Around SBN: Hugh Douglas Admits To Stealing From Jaguars

...with a spoon

Upon hearing the rumor that Gagne might sign with the Giants, I had the same two reactions a lot of you had:

  1. Ew. No. No no no no no. Even if he were just around for one year, he'd leave a stench of Dodger in the clubhouse. It's a stench (burning human flesh and Old Spice) that doesn't just wash out with a little bleach. And all of that for a guy that's thrown ten innings or so in the past two seasons? No.
  2. Of course, it would cheese off Dodger fans. Revenge isn't the best way to build a club, but it would be sweet to tag Jason Schmidt for six runs and bring in Gagne to close a game against the Dodgers. Signing Gagne would also make those stupid "Game Over" shirts disappear from Dodger Stadium. If I had Mark Cuban money, I'd probably pay $6M just for that alone.
Oh, the conflict. But then I started thinking about the potential outcomes:
  1. Gagne stinks or doesn't pitch. The Giants are out $6M.

  2. Gagne pitches well, and the Giants contend. The Giants have a good reliever for a somewhat reasonable salary.

  3. Gagne pitches well, and the Giants fall out of the race before the deadline. The Giants have a sweet, brand-name bargaining chip -- one that could even fetch a young position player ready to start.

The unwritten scenario is obviously what's going to happen: Gagne pitches well enough, the rest of the team plays well enough, the Giants go into August three games back and proceed to lose seventeen straight. Gagne blows all seventeen games during the stretch. No deadline deals are made. That sounds about right.

Ignore the unwritten scenario for a second. The only reason to be against the move is #1, but even that can fall under the "it ain't my money" category. The real question is whether or not that $6M can be better applied somewhere else. Would a Gagne signing prevent taking on Richie Sexson's contract in a salary dump trade? Then forget it. Is Gagne the difference between getting the best available player with the bevy of draft picks, and going cheap and picking seven fourth-rounders in the first two rounds and paying them third-round money?  Once you figure out what that sentence is supposed to mean, you'll want to forget the Gagne idea.

I don't think Gagne would have an effect on any of it. The Giants have already decided if they're going cheap in the draft or not. If the Giants get a chance to nab Sexson for a signed Kevin Mitchell 8 x 10, they'll do it. It wouldn't prevent them from signing Barry Zito -- it might just make them backload the contract a little more. The idea of "just put the $6M into scouting!" is cute, and maybe if one of us amateurs ran a team it'd be a valid argument for not signing Gagne, but there is absolutely no way the Giants would do that.

Both sides are there, but I think the ayes have it. Unless Gagne's salary prevents another improvement to the roster, either in the short-term or with the drafting strategy, he makes sense. It ain't my money. Just picture the "ker-thonk" of Eric Gagne bobbleheads hitting the trash in Southern California; the "flaffafaffa-curumple" of Gagne posters being torn from the wall; and the, uh, "unworn noise" of those stupid "Game Over" shirts not being worn. Then picture the Giants flipping Gagne for a starter at first for 2008. It's worth a shot.

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Re: ...with a spoon
I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who is a die hard Dodger fan, He said the though of Gagne pitching for the Giants makes him sick. I say go for it!

 And by the way, how many draft picks do we have?? I know we lost some for Roberts, and Aurilla.

"I've got a Giant Attitude"

by The Thrill on Dec 11, 2006 8:39 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
The problem is that the thought of Gagne pitching for the Giants makes me sick as well. Really, violently ill.

The conflict rises.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Rumor is the Rangers are pushing hard for Gagne.
"I want to dip my balls in it." Louie

by MeSoKrabby on Dec 11, 2006 8:53 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I saw on Yahoo Sports that the Indians and the Rangers are "finalists" for Gagne. The winner of swimsuit competition takes all.
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I just hope they remember: You don't win with a one piece!

Seriously, though, if one of these teams gets him it will have saved the Giants from yet another awful offseason move.

The only value Gagne would have to this team is as a deadline trading piece, and I don't judge his actual value as a player at this point to be high enough to put six million dollars into it and enough of my hatred behind it to make the thing even close to worth it. One and a half million, and we'll talk. Two is pushing it.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 9:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
It'll also save the Giants front office the uncomfortable waxing of unsightly body hair for the swimsuit competition.
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
What's the latest on his arm? Unless there's been a recent revelation of healthiness, it seems unlikely he'll ever be an effective pitcher again.

by mxmob33 on Dec 11, 2006 9:07 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I've softened on Eric Gagne. He hasn't played much the last two years, so the memories of him pitching against the Giants are getting a bit distant.

Gagne also earned my respect a few years ago when he talked openly about struggling with an eating disorder -- something that's especially tough for a professional athlete, or any man really, to talk about. I have family experience with this sort of thing, and I think it takes a lot of courage for him to talk openly about it. I hope he's played some small role in getting other people to come forward, which is the first step in getting treatment, of course.

As for the possibility of signing him, I don't have a problem with it at all. You can't go wrong with a one-year contract. Even if he's terrible and/or hurt, it's only a short-term problem. And if he's good, you've either got a closer for your contending team or a trade chip.

by Dan from NM on Dec 11, 2006 9:07 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I hadn't heard about the eating disorders.  I'm guessing Grant's play on words in the title of this thread was unintentionally ironic.
Biggest mankinder in the history of no brain.

by Goofus on Dec 11, 2006 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I read the ESPN the Magazine piece on him and his family life, really sad stuff. It made me begrudgingly respect him for going through that and make it to the other side still standing.
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Why pay $6 million for a closer?  For any reliever?  How often, exactly, does that turn out well for the Giants?  For any team?  Relievers who last, who are predictable and consistent, are rare rare birds.  Gagne is not one of those birds.

It's a bad gamble.  The Giants are going to need that $6 million to sign all their higher draft picks this year.  Just say no, Sabean.

by Skaldheim on Dec 11, 2006 9:08 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
You make a good point about the cost of closers. In this case, I think it's outweighed by the possibility of trading him at the deadline for something useful down the road.

As for the draft picks, it's hard for us to evaluate that as outsiders. It's not clear how much money the Giants have left to spend, if anything, or whether they've already set aside enough of a budget for the draft.

His health isn't clear either, but I'm willing to cut Tidrow and company some slack on that issue if they've reviewed recent scouting reports or medical files.

by Dan from NM on Dec 11, 2006 9:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Risk vs Reward
Let me preface by saying there has been whispers in LA for a few years that Gagne was a juicer. No hard facts.

In the last two seasons he has only pitched 15 innings and you want to toss 6m at him?  At least give him a ball and a mound and let him workout out for you before the physical. However, if he reverts to form you got a top shelf closer.

And as far as using him as a trading chip, Sabean would just as soon trade him for an older closer than a younger, healthier talented player.  C'mon fellas, Sabean trades youth for vets - not vets for youth.

by wilriv21 on Dec 11, 2006 9:11 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Risk vs Reward
Juice?  I'd say that's close to guaranteed.  But even his Juice-Adjusted (TM) numbers in 2003 - 04 were lights out.

by Stoned Slacker on Dec 11, 2006 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Risk vs Reward
Juice-Adjusted (TM)

Hey. I like that. I think you may have a whole new cottage industry of stats and so forth.

JAOPS
JAOBP
JABA
JABB
JAHBP
JARS
JAHR
JARBI
JAERA
JAK/9
JAK/BB
JAAB
JAPA
JAVORP
JAOPS+
JAW-L
JASB
JACS

"The Juice Adjusted Baseball Abstract"

"Juice-Adjusted Money Ball"

"Show Me The Juice-Adjusted Money"

"Your Juice Adjusted San Francisco Giants"

"The Juice Adjusted Natural"

"The 2007 Juice Adjusted All-Star Game"

"Juice Adjusted--Can You Hear Me Now"

"With Juice Adjusted Techron"

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 11, 2006 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Hypothetical scenario
Suppose the Giants sign Gagne. Suppose he pitches well. Suppose some Giants fans start wearing the stupid fake goatees just like Dodger fans.

So my question is...should those people be simply ejected from the park, or beaten up and then ejected?

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Dec 11, 2006 9:21 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Oh God, we're in Bizarro world again, aren't we?

No...? Dammit. These fans should be openly and enthusiatstically recognized as assholes, and then ejected. No violence, people. It's not the R.E.M. way.

Er... Giants way.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
I don't believe in pacificism at SBC Park, ever since a fistfight broke out a few rows ahead of me at a Pirates game last season. Sure, it was the bleachers and it's basically a free for all out there, but the Pirates? Who cares about them?
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Nah, I hold no illusions about the reality of violent outbursts anywhere, including the noble ranks of Giants fans (remember the shooting the parking lot not too long back?), but I do have some notions about the way it should be and if predetermined action is going to taken against any individual group (sounds awful when I put it like that), I'd at least like the original intent of that action to be recognized as non-violent... apparently even in the context of somebody else's punchline.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Pass out copies of The Ghandi Reader to the first 40000 fans at every game?
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
In hard cover, please; that way they can be used to bludgeon the fake goatee wearers. I call this "adding irony to injury".
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Dec 11, 2006 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Hardcover it is, then.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
I believe you mean the "The Juice Adjusted Ghandi Reader"
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 11, 2006 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Gandhi would break his protest fasts with juice. Coincidence? I think not.
Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Dec 12, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Some things are sacred
Though famished, Ghandi drank juice because his inner voice told him: "Don't have a cow."

by Moggeee on Dec 13, 2006 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hypothetical scenario
Don't you remember? The one guy was besmirching Nate McLouth's honor, so the other guy decided to take up Mr. McLouth's cause. 'Twas just as exciting as the Tyson-Secretariat fight!

by David A. Arnott on Dec 11, 2006 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

... with a pitchfork
ABM.

Anybody But Mando.

This includes Gagne, Thigh, Nathan, Lance Niekro, or Matt Herges (OK ... maybe not exactly Herges).

A! B! M! (Like Beat LA!)

by tk on Dec 11, 2006 9:57 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ... with a pitchfork
A Bowel Movement

Accurately describes my feelings about any of these guys outside of Nathan closing games for the Giants.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Dec 11, 2006 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Reason # 1 why Eric Gagne will not sign with the Giants: SCOTT BORAS

Scott Boras must have pictures of Tom Hicks in a compromising position. If there is a bidding war for a player, Boras can always count on Hicks to go all-in with a gut-shot straight showing.

by lunaticfringe1 on Dec 11, 2006 10:14 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
If the Giants have $6M + to work with, and are looking towards the pen,

Foulke + Riske + O. Perez > Gagne.

Better yet, sign Zito & Wells for the rotation, allowing Hennessey & Sanchez to thrive in relief.

Dark horse bullpen candidate = Tim Linecum.

While the Giants usually man-handle rooks, if Tim the Enchanter is "lights out" this spring, don't see how the Giants hold him back, with all the holes in the bullpen and rotation.

Bottom line is- Giants need pitching help in the worst way. How about all of the above?

by Kid Fresh on Dec 11, 2006 10:36 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I like Lincecum coming out of the pen.  In fact, I'd like to name him our closer today, and, for symbolic reasons, demote Mando to AA San Ho.  
I continually ask myself why I am a Giants fan.

by Shawn Estes for President on Dec 11, 2006 4:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Kindly, though, you softened the blow by promoting the Little Giants from single-A to AA.
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Dec 11, 2006 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Just what the Giants need.... another player with steroid issues (not confirmed, but widely speculated by people in the know) and injury issues. If Ken Caminiti were still alive, he might be a 3B instead of Feliz.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Dec 11, 2006 11:15 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Caminiti is still better than Feliz.
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 11, 2006 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
My problem with Foulke is that he's 33.  Why didn't the Giants show the slightest bit of interest in Dotel?  He went to the Royals of all places.  Must have been pretty desperate to do that.  Someone mentioned 6 million is a lot for a closer.  How much do you think Billy Wagner,Brad Lidge, Mariano Rivera, even Benitez are making??? A lot more than 6 million.  Dotel went for 5, 6 million really isn't that bad.  I don't buy the argument that this 6 million will block future players.  Sabean knows what holes the team has.  Hes not gonna make this move if its gonna prevent him from landing Sexson or  Burrell.

Remember, we still are probably going to be able to unload half of Benitez's salary if we trade him to the Marlins, or all of it if hes traded to the Phillies.

Lincecum as a close for 1 year wouldn't be that bad...if the rotation is set.  The problem is that it won't be, and he would be more valuable as a starter next year.

I've been suffering from post traumatic stress disorder ever since Game 6.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Dec 11, 2006 12:30 PM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
You're comparing apples to oranges. The difference between those pitchers, with the exception of Buttmando, and Gange is that they are good and also healthy. Gagne, on the other hand, was good 2 years ago before 2 injuries to his knee and arm and various body breakdowns related to the ceasing of juicing. He has only pitched 15 innings in 2 years and refuses to work out for a team prior to signing a guaranteed contract. That is not a good sign.

The Marlins only take Benitez if we pay the entire salary. The Phillies would have taken it all if we had given up a prospect and taken all of Burrell's salary. That deal is dead.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Dec 11, 2006 2:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Mando is in the Dominican. We need to strike a deal with the INS to prevent his reentry.

I believe if we start a whispering campaign that he is an Al Qaeda operative, secretly meeting with Castro's secret police, we could get him banned from the US, added to the FBIs Most Wanted List, and therefore void his contract.

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 11, 2006 7:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
From what I remember from A's games, Dotel was pretty terrible in the closer's role. To me it's similar to how Latroy Hawkins was thrust into a closer's role after being a successful set-up guy.
LicenseToPills: barry bonds says words, they have nothing to do with his thoughts, they are just subjects and predicates in his mental kingdom

by Natto on Dec 11, 2006 5:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I see no indication that Sabean is currently seeking a big bat for first base.

I see no indication that Sabean has ever sought a big bat for first base, Hindenberg notwithstanding.

Lots of L. Fringers are chapped we never signed Vlad.  I'm chapped we never signed/traded for Delgado.

Sabean seems to have a different philosophy about what you look for in a first baseman than I do.

by SnowLeopard on Dec 11, 2006 5:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Strange coincidence
I was rooting through my office yesterday, looking for a photo of an ex, and came across a signed Kevin Mitchell 8 x 10. Odd.

by antinous on Dec 11, 2006 12:49 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Strange coincidence
Kevin Mitchell is your ex?
Read SFDugout. It'll make you a better person.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 11, 2006 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

A Passion for Tatonka
You heard him. He said the couple was Odd.

by Moggeee on Dec 11, 2006 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
I honestly like Gagne, and I've supported a move to get him previously, but SIX MILLION DOLLARS?  No, it's not a lot for a closer--but for a pitcher who hasn't pitched in two years?  Maybe Jim Palmer wants to take another shot at a comeback?  Hell, as long as we're on the subject of revenge signings, I bet Sandy Koufax could still throw 86 or so (which would make him, what, Kirk Rueter with a tailwind?)

If Boras wants 6 million guaranteed for Eric Gagne, let some other sucker take the bait.  We'll make do with 'Mando and hope that Sadler, B. Wilson, or even Tim the Slim can assert themselves.  Sign Riske, poke around the waiver wire...good relief pitching is almost impossible to predict, and that means that good relief pitchers can be found all over the place.  It's tricky, and there's no guarantee you'll succeed, but it's out there.  

A note to those of you expressing interest in Keith FOulke.  Puh-leez.  (Rhymes with Feliz.)  Love the guy for what he did in 2004, love him as an ex-Giants farmhand...but how is he not a bigger question mark than Gagne?  Injury problems, confidence problems, ineffectiveness problems, and the fact that he's a one-pitch pitcher...pass.

by candymanhackman on Dec 11, 2006 6:52 PM PST reply actions  

Tim The Slim - that is a good nickname
Tim "The Slim" Lincecum.  Very appropriate.  Hope he is pitching in The City in 2007 and blowing away the MLB batters.

by wilriv21 on Dec 11, 2006 9:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Le Journal de Montreal (in French) is reporting that Gagne has agreed to terms with the Rangers.  He had been seeking $6m plus incentives that could get him closer to what he made with the Dodgers.  I guess Texas really wanted him, though, because they offered 1/$8 million base.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Dec 12, 2006 8:15 AM PST reply actions  

Re: ...with a spoon
Texas is requiring a physical.  I wonder how that will go.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Dec 12, 2006 8:52 AM PST up reply actions  

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