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Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better

Someone noted before here, don't recall exactly who, in one of Steve's diaries that one should not increase a pitcher's load of IP more than 20-30 IP per year or risk blowing out his arm and/or harming his development.  Someone on The Hardball Times take aim at that "rule of thumb" with some data - apparently Tom Verducci is also a believer of this rule and therefore disses Matt Cain:  http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-year-after-effect/

Star-divide

He ran his study two ways, trying to answer any objections one might have over the population of pitchers encompassed in either dataset and came to this conclusion:  that rule is a bunch of hooey.

Or in his words:  "But the evidence points to the opposite. Pitchers who see a large increase in workload are more likely to continue to be successful than those who don't. It's important to remember that correlation does not mean causation--just because throwing a lot more innings than a pitcher ever has before is correlated with future success does not mean that managers should be riding their young pitchers hard--but it does imply that Verducci's argument is incorrect, and there is absolutely no reason that we should expect these YAE candidates to do worse because they've overworked."

That fits with what a number of us thought, that this rule didn't pass the smell test, but it is always nice when the numbers support you too!  :^)

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
Now there are some obvious flaws in my study. I don't include minor league innings or postseason data, which Verducci does. I only look at whether a pitcher throws 30 or more innings than he did in the previous season, rather than in any season in his career.

One flaw that jumps out is that without minor-league numbers, we may lose a lot of innings from guys who were called up midseason or who went back and forth in a given year.  I admittedly don't know how much this would affect the study.  It would, however, remove at least some pitchers who appeared to have their IP increased a lot when in fact they didn't - it was just that a lot of the IP were in the minors that year.

Also, Gassko is right to point out the correlation/causation issue.  Good pitchers are going to get a lot more innings pitched, and bad pitchers are going to get sent back to the minors.  If a guy is sent back to the minors (and not the disabled list) because it has not yet been determined that he is injured, and they think he merely isn't good, then that guy will be excluded from the study.

I don't trust Verducci to run an accurate study.  David Gassko is good, but it really looks like he threw this together to counter Verducci before he had the chance to work out all the details and get an accurate picture.

From this info, it is hard to say either way what the truth is.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Nov 30, 2006 6:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
For those who missed Verducci's treatise, this is what we had to say about Cain:

"...let's look at the YAE for the Class of 2005, the young pitchers who were pushed beyond the 30-inning threshold that season: Matt Cain (+33.1 innings at age 20)...Cain (+1.82), Duke (+2.66) and Maholm (+2.58) all saw dramatic rises in their ERAs."

  1. 46 IP (2.33 ERA) in the Majors
  2. 190 IP (4.15 ERA) in the Majors
I realize that he's added Cain's minor league and major league innings pitched in 2005 to arrive at the appropriate comparison between years, but when I read this I was a bit perplexed, thinking that using these two vastly different numbers seemed awfully biased. Am I wrong or isn't one of the McCoven's basic principles to look at sample size?

by Giant Fan in Singapore on Nov 30, 2006 6:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
No, you are right.  And if there is some magical 30 inning threshold, then what is the big deal about whether a guy pitches 29 extra innings or 33?  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Nov 30, 2006 6:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
He's also looking at the wrong numbers. ERA is highly subject to random noise, especially in such a small sample. Cain's peripherals (strikeout rate, walk rate, line drive percentage, etc.) indicate that he actually improved in his second year. We all sort of knew that 2.33 ERA was a fluke, right?

by Evan on Nov 30, 2006 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
Not me! I have sipped the Cain Cool-Aid and fully expect 200 IP/2.00 ERA/200K for 10+ years in a row, and nothing less!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on Nov 30, 2006 8:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
You sir, ARE A PESSIMIST

300 innings
300 strikeouts
30 wins
1.50 ERA
For 20 years breaking Cy Young's career wins with 600 wins and 100 losses (96 of these coming after he is traded to the Kansas City Royals for Roger Clemens III

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 1, 2006 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
I think you mean Koger Klemens III.
If I ever come back as a ghost, I won't be an Uncle Tom like that fuck, Slimer.

by CystedTwister on Dec 1, 2006 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
Am I missing something, or is this study full of selection bias?

For a player to clear his previous season's IP total by 30, he usually has to be healthy. Meanwhile, one of the main reasons that a pitcher doesn't pitch more innings is injury. So group one is selecting for healthy pitchers and group two is selecting for injured pitchers. If that's correct, then the only surprise is that group two didn't fair worse.

 

by Bhaakon on Nov 30, 2006 7:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats Show More IP Increased, The Better
Basically.  There is also the fact that, for the most part, the only young kids who are ever going to have their innings increased more than 30 IP a year, are going to be young kids with a lot of potential in the first place.  The finding really has nothing to do with actual wear and tear on the arm, and everything to do with the group of people who are in the position to have their innings increased by 30 in the first place.

D

by sunnyd100 on Nov 30, 2006 8:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stop. You're Killing Me.
Tom Verducci. Serious Study. In the same paragraph?
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAH
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Dec 1, 2006 9:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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