Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the Angels
FOX Sports reports that Gary Matthews Jr. has agreed to a 5 year / 50$ mil. contract. Combine that with Juan Pierre's signing with the Dodgers, and we're looking good so far.
Just sign Barry already!
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I'd like to add...
We should sign Barry, consider Aubrey Huff for 3B, and look into Gil Meche or Tony Armas Jr. Maybe explore the trade market once FA dries up to see if anyone wants our damaged goods (like Winn, Benitez, et al).
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 10:40 AM PST reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
by amoose on Nov 22, 2006 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
Switching leagues, from AL to NL, I think would especially help a pitcher like Meche who has a very good fastball.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
meche...
Re: meche...
Most of the time, when I watch baseball, especially the NL, I see SPs that throw between 88-91 mph 4-seamers. Meche, not too long ago, used to top out at 96-97. Now, he's not going to throw that hard for the next 3-4 years, but at least he's starting from a higher average velocity than most pitchers.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
forget I said anything...
Re: forget I said anything...
As far as SP on this free agent market goes I would say he and Padilla are the only good looking options (not taking price into consideration).
by amoose on Nov 22, 2006 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
Re: meche...
Speed on a fastball isn't everything unless you're throwing ridiculous rates and accompany it with a couple of decent-to-good offspeed/breaking pitches.
Re: meche...
I've seen a lot of Meche over the years and last year he definitely took a step forward in terms of his pitching ability.
IF we were to sign a SP, I'd probably put him at the top of the list for combination of talent and signability.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Re: meche...
Re: I'd like to add...
Re: I'd like to add...
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Nov 22, 2006 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
Cain, Lowry, Morris and either Hennessey, Correia or Sanchez make four starters, but getting five out of that group would be stretching it. The Giants are still very short in the bullpen, so we'll need two of Hennessey, Correia and Sanchez there.
However, in this FA environment, the SP possabilites are SO over inflated, I think the Giants should just invite a Jamey Wright type or two for the minor league minumum. I would also be OKAY with signing Woody Williams to a one year deal for around $6 million.
by GiantJim on Nov 22, 2006 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
by vizqueltofrandsentoniekro on Nov 22, 2006 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I'd like to add...
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Sure there was a ship.
Re: Sure there was a ship.
Re: Sure there was a ship.
In reality, Sabean and co. will go through the motions of "looking to be competitive" but let's hope that they spend their money on the least damaging contracts to their future.
Coming this close to the signing the dangerous contracts of Pierre and Matthews, is a sign that Sabean is not too worried about weighing down their payroll with lengthy and expensive contracts.
by GiantJim on Nov 22, 2006 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
If not Texas, there will be some team that needs a mediocre weak-armed OF, no? I can at least hope. I know Texas has been down on Blalock in recent years (with good reason, dude has underperformed like what), but if we could ship Winn and a prospect for Hank... that's a good risk to take.
Of course, do we even have "prospects" in our system? It's debatable.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
At least when Winn hits that bad, that's not so bad for a CF - for a 3B, that's bottom of the barrel.
And for those who say you need to include home numbers, Arlington's numbers are so skewed that fantasy baseball advise columns recommend hitters who will be hitting there and to avoid any pitcher pitching there. Plus, the fact is that he'll be hitting at AT&T, not Arlington, if he moves here.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 22, 2006 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
I think the better analysis would be to find a median point between home and road splits for any extreme parks. If you look at Hank Blalock's minor league numbers, he's a guy that has completely underperformed to his projections (not that Minor League #s are great predictors either), but he's definitely a guy that was classified as having a high upside early on in his career, and in my opinion I think a park like Arlington has contributed to his stagnating overall numbers by instilling bad hitting habits.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
Blalock
by lyricalkiller on Nov 22, 2006 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Blalock
Good point.
Lowry
Sanchez
Sadler
by lyricalkiller on Nov 22, 2006 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Good point.
I think he's too risky to give up Lowry or Sanchez for. I'd be willing to part with, say, Sadler and EME.
Re: Good point.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
Ah ha!
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr.
Just why would Barry want to sign with the Giants. We are a team looking straight at 100 loses with or without Barry. Why would Barry want to finish his career like this?
Mark my words, Barry will be an Oakland A where he can continue to play infront of BayArea Fans and where he has a real chance and playoff sucess.
I would not be suprised if Ray didn't join Barry in Oakland. They could rotation between DH and LF and the A's could pay for both with the Zito, Thomas, and Payton money.
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr.
I don't need to mark your words, no one has any clue what's going to happen, esp. since it seems like there is some kind of collusion going on to actively prevent teams from signing Bonds.
I think it's more likely the A's sign Piazza, and maybe Durham.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 22, 2006 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr.
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
Woohoo!
Optimism Point #1: As more and more of these guys sign, Barry is more likely to be back, and he is better than all of these crap FAs. Plus, he is only a one-year contract.
Optimism Point #2: There are still creative things to be done that can make this team competitive (and look: the 83 win St Louis Cardinals were WS Champion).
Optimism Point #3: Inflation or no, these FA contracts aren't worth it. This is about avoiding bad signings. Overpaying for someone who is very good is one thing, while overpaying (or even paying in the first place) for Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr is another. Giving Zito big dollars for 7 years may get you 5 or 6 good years. Giving Sarge Lite or Punchless Pierre 4 or 5 years at any dollars might not get you one above-average performance. These contracts have Edgardo Alfonzo written all over them.
Optimism Point #4: The pitching will be good. You can always compete with pitching. Pay for some bullpen insurance, and use it as trade fodder to shore up other holes when the time comes.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Nov 22, 2006 11:44 AM PST reply actions
There are a lot of buyers, still
So, of that wish list, what's reasonable? One of 'em? Two?
by lyricalkiller on Nov 22, 2006 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Woohoo!
Well-Well
Re: Woohoo!
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Woohoo!
The Giants need a #1 starter. Unfortunately there are no #1s in this market (and only a handful of true #1s in all of MLB for that matter).
As more and more premier free agents disappear from the market, it's time to begin packing away your Giant foam fingers. They will be unnecessary in 2007.
by vizqueltofrandsentoniekro on Nov 22, 2006 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Woohoo!
Cain in the second half of 2006 had a 3.26 ERA, 9.0 K/9, 3.6 BB, 0.7 HR/9, batters hitting .214/.296/.357/.653 off of him (45 AB/HR). If that is not ace or all-star material, then I don't know what is. Quibbling on his walks when he has a strong K/9 (and 3.0 BB/9 is the max you want so he's not that far) seems extreme to say the least.
No matter how bad the offense ends up, I think the pitching will keep the Giants interesting in 2007.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 22, 2006 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
The Case for Punting 2007
Reason to punt #1: The next 2 drafts look like they are going to be deeper when it comes to position prospects, something our system desperately needs. If the Giants have higher picks, they stand a much better chance of getting one or more of those. Picking number one would be even better. If we lose a bunch of our FA's this time, that only increases the number of picks we'll get. That is the best way to build up your minor league system, and it gives us chips to trade later on if we look like we're close.
Reason to punt #2: 2008's free agent class, at this point, is going to be much deeper than this year's: Andruw Jones, Ichiro, Vernon Wells, Adam Dunn, Michael Young, and Trevor Hoffman are just some of the names. Yes a bunch of these guys will sign with their same clubs or only want to be on the east coast, but still there will be a lot of talent available. 2009 is still too far away to project. Regardless, don't expect these guys to be cheaper than this year's lot, but if the market is full of good players, maybe there will be some dilution, but don't expect too much. If the Giants save a bunch of $ from being frugal now, they will be able to overspend with the big boys in 2008 and 2009.
Obviously, the down side to this is sucking for a year or two, but let's face it. We could spend a whole ton of loot this offseason on overpriced guys and we'll still suck or be in the middle of the back at best. It's like not needing a million dollars to do nothing all day long. But why settle for being just mediocre when we can take sucking to a new low and cash in later. Just one or two years of being the Royals will pay off eventually.
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 12:44 PM PST reply actions
Re: The Case for Punting 2007
Re: The Case for Punting 2007
Re: The Case for Punting 2007
One of our current glaring organizational problems, which has come to fruition this offseason is that we have no minor league trade bait to help us out when the market goes nuts as it has this year. Seriously, we could get a Vernon Wells type guy (2008 FA) this year if we had anything good in the pipeline to trade Toronto. I'm not saying it'd be worth it because of we have so many holes to fill, but that's the type of thing I'm talking about in point number 1.
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Re: The Case for Punting 2007
Moreover, having a decent plan and executing it our 2 different things. If our scouting system can't recognize talent when it sees it, then we're screwed regardless of what we do.
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Re: The Case for Punting 2007
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
"It came down to the Angels and the Giants," Scott Leventhal, Matthews' agent, told The Associated Press.
And:
Leventhal said Matthews made his decision Wednesday morning. Matthews had also been sought by the San Francisco Giants.
"They were right there," Leventhal said. "It was a very difficult decision. More than 10 teams kicked the tires. Everybody couldn't be more pleased."
San Francisco was also said to be offered $50 million over five years before the Angels matched that package.
Thank goodness he wanted to live on SoCal.
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
Well, I guess to some extent that worries me -- management does have a good amount of payroll to spend, and while this message board may have all kinds of good suggestions for what the Giants should or shouldn't do, I doubt Sabean is listening.
At this rate, Aurilia (if we sign him, as someone above wrote is a done deal) is a good stopgap at 3B, but other than Zito there isn't a FA out there who'll be worth even 75% of what his contract will pay over the life of the terms.
Maybe we should punt it next year. If we trade for anyone though, we should definitely include Hennessey in the package as he seems to have the least upside of all our young pitchers.
by losingcalifornia on Nov 22, 2006 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
by GiantJim on Nov 22, 2006 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
For Sabean to be genius, he would have to had figured that the Angels can match the Giants 5 year/$50M contract AND were willing to do that AND that that was the most that they would go. Plus knew that living in SoCal was that important to Gary Matthews.
How would that work? I knew the Angels were desperate for offense from things I have read about them - which I always found odd because they have Vlad and their vaunted farm system of good position players - but to be that desperate for Matthews? Perhaps by being in the mix for all the CF, Sabean could figure out which teams were focusing on one guy and which were spreading out their interest, and found that the Angels were only focusing on Matthews. He could pull down the salaries they already had plus past payrolls to get a sense for how much they are spending, plus since most teams have some sort of public pronouncement of their budget, he could also have gotten it that way, and figured out that the Angels had a lot of money to spend.
Further research would show what positions they were looking for, which would give Sabean an idea of how the money they have remaining needs to be spread out. Plus the pattern of past contracts would give a clue to how their management handled years. I would guess, though, that it was the Angels who upped the ante to 5 years, which the Giants then matched and perhaps matched money too, until the Angels stopped upping their bid.
But that final piece of the puzzle, knowing that Matthews would tip the scale to LA for a matching bid, how would he know that one? I can see offering, say, $1M less in total package or something to make it easier for the player who grew up in LA area (Granada Hills High School, Grenada Hills; wow, Mark Davis and John Elway's high school too) and (in any case) has a lot of family there, but to match the salary, you would have to know that he was preferring to be with the Angels, given his druthers. How do you dig that out and then bid the same salary when the guy just told you to win his services you have to beat theirs?
It would take a total asshole to know that you have to overbid and then to just bid the same, knowing you are going to lose, and Sabean don't seem that type. Of course, Matthews agent wouldn't care, he knows his client would chose the Angels, but dutifully would report back to the Angels that the Giants had matched their bid, do they want to up it?
Whew, in any case, it's a line drive up the middle in the boxscore, avoiding a disastrous contract like that.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 22, 2006 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
It has been noted already in this thread, but it seems Giant management is waiting until Dec. 1 to do most of there business.
I'd prefer that Linden and Frandson just be given opening day spots, or at least in position to win or lose a staring role in spring training. And, WTF, just sign Bonds. I don't know who the hell they expect to hit behind him but at least the Giants can get butts in the seats.
Bottom line for '07: Let's see some young talent develop and watch Barry stagger past Aaron, because here just isn't enough available talent to build a playoff caliber team.
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2006 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
by GiantJim on Nov 22, 2006 2:14 PM PST reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
The only veteran we can "sell high" on now is Vizquel, and I don't think the Giants are prepared to take the PR hit that would come with such a trade.
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
Giants fans should consider themselves lucky that we DID NOT waste $50M on JUAN PIERRE or GARY MATTHEWS JR. Sabean did offer $96M for SORIANO for 6 yrs - a decent offer, and at least the guy is a STAR.....
An earlier post on another thread quoted Sabean as saying:
"I don't like to spend a lot of time on the draft. It's a crapshoot anyways, so in a way it's a waste of time." If he did actually say this, it was a stupid remark, and the reason that the Giants have one of the weakest farm systems in Baseball for position players. Hopefully, he has learned the error of his ways.
To begin with, THIS IS A WEAK FREE-AGENT MARKET.
There will be many "Type B" Free Agents, i.e. TROT NIXON, RICH AURILIA, PRESTON WILSON, JOSE GUILLEN, GREG ZAUN, TED LILLY, GIL MECHE and several others who will perform better than many "Type A" Free Agents
The GIANTS have a UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY this year to build up their farm system quickly. Here's a brief primer on FREE AGENCY 101:
Teams that lose a Type A free agent are compensated with two draft picks. Teams that lose a Type B free agent get one pick in return.
It's interesting because it's an exploitable area. If you're a low-budget team looking to build your organization through the draft and player development, losing the right guys (overvalued, Type A free agents) can pay dividends. Similarly, signing the right low-level (Type-B/No-Comp) undervalued FAs, (you lose one pick for signing a Type B, is certainly low-risk, and might be high-return if you're lucky.
Keep in mind, nearly all these comped picks are within the first two rounds, (with the exception of the FIRST 15 PICKS being protected). That's before solid-looking prospects like Jonathan Papelbon, Elijah Dukes, or Ricky Nolasco are getting picked...they are slots where you're essentially getting instant top-20 prospects within your organization.
The GIANTS FREE AGENTS are as follows:
BONDS Type A
DURHAM Type A
ALOU Type A
SCHMIDT Type A
FELIZ Type B
HILLENBRAND Type B
STANTON Type B
STEVE FINLEY N/C
TODD GREENE N/C
STEVE KLINE N/C
JAMEY WRIGHT N/C
For a small investment, the GIANTS could field the following team in 2007:
FRANDSEN 2B
VIZQUEL SS
BONDS LF
AURILIA 3B (better offensively & defensively than FELIZ)
NIXON 1B (better offensively & defensively than NIEKRO/HILLENBRAND)
LINDON RF
ZAUN/ALFONSO C
WINN CF
Granted, this is may not be a great team, but NO WORSE than last year.
Let's not forget that we're playing in the worst division in Baseball, where playing .500 ball actually gives you a shot at winning.
We would LOSE 4 PICKS for AURILIA, NIXON & ZAUN,
and GAIN 9 PICKS FOR ALOU, DURHAM, SCHMIDT, FELIZ, HILLENBRAND, STANTON for A NET GAIN OF 5 PICKS IN THE FIRST TWO ROUNDS OF THE DRAFT.
By taking this approach, we would SAVE MONEY, still have all of our good young pitching and an additional 5 HIGH DRAFT PICKS, all of which could be used for trades and/or THE BETTER FREE AGENT GROUP NEXT YEAR.
IT'S TIME TO BUILD FOR THE FUTURE, not get caught up in spending ridiculous amounts of money for mediocre, over-prices players.
by maysman on Nov 23, 2006 10:20 AM PST reply actions
Re: Another bullet dodged - Matthews Jr. to the An
- replenish the farm system
- Frandsen 2B at or near top of otder
- Bonds in the three-hole
- Aurilia playing for SF again if contract is 2yrs
- Ok with Nixon either 1B or RF
- giving Linden an opportunity to play
- having Alfonzo as back-up catcher
- having LH in batting order
- another SP
- some more team speed
- bullpen help

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