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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

by Poe on Nov 1, 2006 7:01 AM PST

Yes. I love the Chronicle. First they freak us out, then they print this:

The Giants have spent more time discussing a new contract for Pedro Feliz than any of their other potential free agents, but no deal is imminent and the club could explore other options at third base, team sources say.

Feliz poses an interesting dilemma for the Giants. On one hand, he led the team with 98 RBIs in 2006, played above-average defense for most of the year and was durable. He wants to return, and if the Giants sign him quickly, they will have one of many open positions filled.

On the other hand, some in the organization have grown weary of Feliz's lack of plate patience and dreadful situational hitting. There are alternatives on the free-agent market, including a potential star in Aramis Ramirez.

Uh. Ramirez please. Thank you.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Calling Pedro Feliz's agent from a pay phone to let him know he's free to seek other offers?

About 50 cents.

Using your expensive cell-phone minutes to call Aramis Ramirez's agent and arrange a time and place to discuss a contract?

About $10.

Signing Aramis Ramirez and having him play for you in 2007?

About $18,000,000.

Knowing that Aramis Ramirez is playing 3B and hitting cleanup for your San Francisco Giants?

Priceless.

Waiting for Nate, Marcus, Nick, & Emmanuel

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Nov 1, 2006 7:07 AM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

The Chronicle should have said "on the other hand, some in the organization have grown weary of Feliz's lack of plate patience and dreadful hitting." It's just more accurate.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Nov 1, 2006 7:11 AM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Unnecessary qualifier or not, I have set the bar so low for these guys that I'm happy to hear that at least someone in the orginzation can see the obvious, even if it's not the person negotiating the deals or signing the checks. It could be "Kenny the Singing Vendor" for all we know, but I'm just happy to know that a voice of reason is in the mix somewhere.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 1, 2006 10:34 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

The term "situational hitting" in this case refers to the situation in which he's at the plate with a bat in his hands.

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Nov 1, 2006 11:34 AM PST up reply actions

A whoosh followed by a swoosh

They've run some double-blind tests on Feliz and found that he does just as well in those situations with absolutely no bat in his hands.

by Moggeee on Nov 1, 2006 9:10 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Well, that does make me feel a little better. The fact that the Giants apparently only think he's a dreadful "situational hitter" doesn't, but at least they haven't just decided to re-sign him already.

P.S. Sabes, please sign Ramirez. :D

LicensetoPills: they say this to my family. to barry bonds family. and i say, "i'll bust you up. here is a candy corn."

by jponry on Nov 1, 2006 7:53 AM PST reply actions

Ramirez? I'm Afraid Not

That statement from the Giants' front office looks JUST LIKE a shot across the bows of Pedro's agent, who yesterday said the two parties are somewhat distant in the money each has proposed.

Negotiating Patter is all it is.

by Moggeee on Nov 1, 2006 8:39 AM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

I still think the Giants sign Feliz. He will be cheaper then Aramis Ramirez, Feliz wants to re-sign with the Giants, something I don't know if Aramis Ramirez does, and the Giants know what what they are gettin gwith Feliz, good and bad.

Keeping a close eye on the Giants AAA players

by Andy In Fresno on Nov 1, 2006 9:31 AM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

And one also knows what they're getting when they buy used cars from Richard Nixon.

Younger Faster Stronger, Healthier and more competitive? MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

by E Ticket on Nov 1, 2006 9:36 AM PST up reply actions

A name you can trust

I've got some detergent on sale.

by Moggeee on Nov 1, 2006 9:40 AM PST up reply actions

Re: A name you can trust

nice.

Dodgers fans eat their young.

by redhornet78 on Nov 1, 2006 2:22 PM PST up reply actions

I agree with Andy

The budget only allows for so many dollars. If Feliz is receptive to 3yr/15m, I think this is fair and reasonable. Feliz is not a utility player or a super-sub. The Giants played Feliz almost every inning of every game for most of last season. Give him the occasional day off so he can be fresh as the long season progresses. With this new contract Feliz must be receptive to hitting coach instruction and use entire field.The other monies can be spent on other positions and hopefully not all in one place.

by wilriv21 on Nov 1, 2006 10:51 AM PST up reply actions

Re: I agree with Andy

But he's bad. Why do you want to give any of your limited dollars to a player who doesn't help you win?

And if you give him a three-year contract, what's your leverage for enforcing the rule that he must be receptive to anything?

by Evan on Nov 1, 2006 12:06 PM PST up reply actions

Re: I agree with Andy

>With this new contract Feliz must be receptive to hitting coach instruction and use entire field.

The guy will be 32 in April and has been the same crappy hitter since he made the bigs. What's going to make him change now? Certainly not a fat contract.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Nov 1, 2006 12:15 PM PST up reply actions

Re: I agree with Andy

Have seen Feliz take the ball up the middle and to RCF at times during his career. He actually went to the plate with that thought process and plan. If he was to be pitched outside he drove the ball to the opposite field. So he knows how to do this just needs to continue that approach to hitting longer than a few ABs. Obviously Feliz has the "can't walk off the island" approach when it comes to BBs, this needs to be changed.

by wilriv21 on Nov 1, 2006 12:37 PM PST up reply actions

we're signing Feliz

it's time to move on. This is going to happen. he'll be too cheap for Sabes to pass up.

Next season, we're going to field a team filled with guys who overchieved during contract years (Winn, Matthews, Feliz, Durham), aging veterans (Gonzo) and cheap young guys (Linden, Lewis, Niekro). And it won't be pretty.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 1, 2006 11:06 AM PST reply actions

Re: we're signing Feliz

Feliz overachieved? In which contract year? 2004, maybe?

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Nov 1, 2006 11:36 AM PST up reply actions

Re: we're signing Feliz

the fact that he played nearly every game last year was itself overachieving...unfortunately for us.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 1, 2006 1:28 PM PST up reply actions

Re: we're signing Feliz

I think you're mixing up 'overachieving' and 'overreaching'.

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Nov 1, 2006 2:44 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

CF Matthews
SS Vizquel
2B Durham
LF Gonzo
RF Winn
3B Feliz
1B Niekro
C Alphonszo

My god, that is a 100 loss line-up if I've ever seen it.

Humm Baby!

by Kid Fresh on Nov 1, 2006 12:17 PM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Reading that lineup made me a vomit a little bit.

My VORP is higher than your VORP.

by Poe on Nov 1, 2006 12:24 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Wow. I'm going to file this away, so after the Giants make a bunch of moves I'm not happy with, I can look at their 2007 lineup and say "at least it's not as bad as this."

Unless, of course, it is.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 1, 2006 12:29 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Isn't Dave Roberts going to be in the mix somewhere? Good lord. I'm moving to another country next summer.

Omar don't scare.

by SF Pete on Nov 1, 2006 12:35 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

We can't start Winn, Gonzo, Matthews, and Roberts in the outfield every day! I hadn't thought of that! This is the best news of the offseason so far, Pete!

Although come to think of it, Luis Gonzalez has the arm of a first baseman...

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 1, 2006 12:37 PM PST up reply actions

Really

It can't take that long to appreciate Cricket, can it? Hurling?

The Dodgers are evil.

by irwin on Nov 1, 2006 1:18 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Really

I have a feeling next year's team is going to induce a lot of hurling.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 1, 2006 1:25 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Everything I read says that Rameriz is likely to resign with the Cubs at a higher rate. Without Rameriz, the 3b crop of free agents isn't too appetizing. Feliz at a discount may well be the best option. Especially if more money can then go to a young front-line pitcher or bat.

yob

by Sayhey on Nov 1, 2006 12:55 PM PST reply actions

A discount from what?

Of the 29 regularish MLB third basemen last year, Feliz finished dead last in OPS, well behind guys like Graffanino and Punto and David Bell. And OPS tends to overrate low-OBP sluggers.

Feliz is terrible. He hurts the team every time he comes to the plate. Spending any more than the major league minimum on that kind of player is folly.

by Evan on Nov 1, 2006 1:21 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

the Giants don't care about OPS, although it wouldn't surprise me if they lead the league in OOPS.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 1, 2006 1:26 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

Feliz is a better home run hitter and a better defensive third baseman than any of the guys you mention. He is terrible at taking a walk. The trouble is that you are judging players by the one trait which is Feliz' worst. I don't want to pay a tremendous amount for Pedro, but, especially at a discount to keep him, he brings positives to the club.

yob

by Sayhey on Nov 1, 2006 3:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

No, that's my point: OPS counts home runs. If anything, it's overly generous to home runs. And Feliz is still the worst-hitting third baseman in the game.

If you measure things by the single most important stat, on-base average, he's not just the worst, he's deeply, hilariously, hopelessly the worst.

His fielding, no matter how good it is, can't come close to making up for the runs he gives up at the plate.

by Evan on Nov 1, 2006 3:52 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

That's the problem with relying on one stat. OPS does indeed count slugging percentage, and therefore home runs as part of that stat, but it is made up of both slugging percentage and on base percentage. It is the on base percentage aspect of the stat that magnifies Feliz weakness. No one would dispute he strikeouts too much and walks too few times, but his homerun power is a plus and is better than the third baseman you name. He is tied for thirteenth among all major league third baseman last year (22 HRs in 603 ABs). Bell was 26th (with 10 HRs in 504 ABs,) Graffanino was tied for 34th (with 5HRs - in 220 ABs,) Punto had only one home run to tie him for 49th (1 in 459 ABs.) I make that Feliz hits a home run every 27 ABs, while the three above hit one every 44 to 50 ABs. Which means you would gain in on base percentage with any of the three, and you'd lose in home run power.

As well, while I trust few defensive stats, I would submit Feliz is far better defensively than any of the three. So, what you gain with walks, you lose with home runs and the glove. Now, if Ramirez is really available or a trade can be made for Rodriquez, Wright, Chavez, or any of the other much superior bats that also give power and defense, then by all means let's get one of them. I don't believe any are really available, so in that light Feliz looks to be a good short term solution.

yob

by Sayhey on Nov 1, 2006 4:52 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

Okay, forget that he's a complete disaster at getting on base and take a closer look at his alleged power instead. Among those 29 third basemen, Feliz is 19th in home runs per plate appearance. So in the part of the game he's best at, he's in the bottom half of players at his position.

I mentioned Graffanino and Bell and Punto not because they're good but because they're not. They're bottom of the barrel. They're the bargain basement guys, the ones you can get for a one-year, two-million dollar contract -- and every one of them puts more runs on the scoreboard than Pedro Feliz.

by Evan on Nov 1, 2006 7:47 PM PST up reply actions

Among the League Leaders

We're much more concerned here with Pedro's Comments-Per-Thread Ratio.

by Moggeee on Nov 1, 2006 9:16 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

"alleged power"? Are you kidding? I realize 90% + of the posters here hate Pedro, but gimme a break. In trying to determine if a player has home run power one has to look at the number of home runs he has hit, the ratio of homeruns to at bats, look at the park he plays in, compare his numbers to the league average, and - most importantly - watch the player play. Pedro has plenty of power. He lacks plate discipline, but he can hit the ball over the fence with best of them at his position. If you don't find that aspect of his game valuable enough to help make up for his terrible OBP then argue the point, but don't put up phony arguments denying the parts of Feliz' game that are positive.

yob

by Sayhey on Nov 1, 2006 10:11 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

"He can hit the ball over the fence with best of them at his position."

This just isn't true, sayhey. The 22 qualifying third basemen last year (including slap hitters like Bell, Graffanino, Sanchez and Punto) averaged one home run every 25.6 at bats... just about what Pedro has done over his career (25.7). And it's not like he's been improving... that number was 28.5 for Pedro in 2005 and 27.4 in 2006, when he ranked 13th out of these 22 players. In short, he can hit the ball over the fence with the average of them at his position.

AT&T generally plays fair to righties, but he has hit for more power on the road in his career, hitting a home run every 22.1 at-bats, so you can give him a little boost for his home park. Home run power is certainly not a weakness in Pedro's game, but it's not a particular strength either.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 1, 2006 10:45 PM PST up reply actions

An Arc into the Night

I will speak to the subjective science of what it feels like when Pedro connects.

It doesn't come that often, I suppose, but when he lays into the right pitch, Pedro's magnificent shots are only surpassed in recent Giants right-handed history by Matt,* the Cat*, and Ellis Burks.

(Williams and Gallaraga.)

by Moggeee on Nov 1, 2006 10:55 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

My comment you quote is meant to convey the fact that Pedro has "legitimate" home run power as opposed to those slap hitters he was being compared to. He is not an "alleged" home run hitter. In that regard he has the power to hit the ball over any fence, in any yard, against any pitcher. I don't want to say he is an equal threat to hit a home run as guys like Rameriz, Glaus, or Jones. He isn't - not because he can't hit the ball as far - but because he doesn't hit it any where as often.

Your stats on home run ratio are the same as the ones I quoted above, so we have no argument about them. I do like the fact you take into the fact AT&T effects on number of home runs. Most don't when evaluating Pedro's numbers.

What I'd ask is how many of the third baseman who have better home runs to ABs ratios are available as free agents? How many are likely candidates for trades? If they also have good gloves, I'm all for getting them over signing Feliz, but that looks like it isn't going to happen.

Really what I'm saying is, if one is going to consider signing another player for the position other than Pedro, his strengths as well as his much discussed weaknesses need to be considered instead of knee jerk bad mouthing of a player. A fair judgment of his strengths include both his home runs (the same number as Chavez and Rolen, and a better ratio than Lowell, Tracy, Zimmerman, and Blalock) and his excellent glove.

yob

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2006 9:57 AM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

You are correct in principle, just not in magnitude.

You can't look at a guy and say he has two pluses (power, defense) and 1 minus (getting on base) and grade him out to a plus.

Each of these components to his play (on-base, power, defense, not to mention defensive flexibility and base running) matter to different extents are they are interelated.

Compared to an average ML 3B Fleas gives up lots and lots and lots of outs at the plate. He has decent power (not sure where he ranks in ISO, which is SLG-AVG), so that's gives back some. All the combined metrics take this into account - VORP, RC, EQA - OPS mentioned here does to, but actually underrates OBP. (1.2xOBP+SLG is better).

By all these offensive measures, Fleas costs the Giants with his bat.

Now, he does give SOME back with the glove. Maybe even enough to get him up to mediocre... as long as he continues to be the best fielding 3B in the league.

But if you fill your lineup with mediocre guys and pay them like veteran starters, you are going to have a mediocre team.

by zenbitz on Nov 2, 2006 3:15 PM PST up reply actions

Re: A discount from what?

I completely agree. I hate Feliz and hope he does not come back. Aurelia is much better than him at 3B.
I think his subtraction will instantly add 5 wins to the team!

"It's hard to win when you can't keep the ball in the ballpark. I don't think they could hit more home runs if you told them what was coming." - Dusty Baker

by johngalt on Nov 1, 2006 3:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Let Frandsen play third. No way can he be worse, and he'll cost millions less.

My VORP is higher than your VORP.

by Poe on Nov 1, 2006 1:40 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Feliz for any amount of money that ends with million is a f**king joke. The guy is horrible at the plate. I wouldn't care if he was the 3B equivilant of JT Snow, it can't make up for his complete ineptitude at the plate. The talk of resigning Feliz for $5M makes no sense, we are better off dumpster diving at third and spending the $5M towards ANY OTHER acquistion than putting it towards another season of Pedro at 3rd.

Please do not resign Fleas!

by W8ingForATitle on Nov 1, 2006 5:08 PM PST reply actions

Re: Ugh. Feliz. Ewwww Part Deux

Could not agree more! If no Aramis, bring on Wes Helms, Aurilia or bell, I dont care.

by sfgreg on Nov 1, 2006 5:14 PM PST up reply actions

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