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Free Talent

Back in the days of 56K modems and Doug Creek, there was a martyr for the cause. The cause was the idea of "free talent", and the martyr was Roberto Petagine. Year after year he'd crush AAA, get about 60 at-bats in the majors, and then shuffle off to another team to repeat the process. Any team with a hole at first was kindly directed by internet nerds to pick up Roberto Petagine, but it never happened. Petagine went to Japan, became a star, and the rest was history. "History" in this case is loosely defined as "nerds feeling smug about themselves". I was proud to be one of those nerds.

That was a long time ago, though. It isn't correct to say that free talent doesn't exist anymore; the Tigers are in the World Series thanks to a heaping help of it, and bullpen help is always floating around the surface of the waiver wire. But it is certainly less likely that a player worth starting is just going to be hanging out in the open. Two names always seem to come up in these discussions, and have here over the past week: Hee Seop Choi and Carlos Pena. It makes sense; both used to be top prospects, and both have been neatly tucked into bassinets and left on the baseball world's doorstep. Choi's last impressive year was 2004, when he hit .270/.388/.495 with the Marlins (good) and .161/.289/.242 after being traded to the Dodgers (even better). But he hit .207/.347/.361 in AAA last season. Ouch. When he was with the Dodgers, he looked like a cricket player taking some swings in batting practice for a photo op. The recent results don't seem to indicate he's discovered the secret of hitting either. I'd sign him for the Fresno, but would rather have Damon Minor.

Pena has a .243/.331/.459 career line in the majors, and hit .278/.383/.490 in AAA last season. That's swell, but it was still AAA. For some perspective, consider that Lance Niekro hit .319/.349/.660 after being demoted this year. He isn't the punchline to a scout's bathroom graffiti like Choi, and his defense is supposed to be good. If every other hole on the team was filled with an offensive-minded player, Pena would be a good risk to take. If the lineup is filled with Pedro Feliz, Kevin Frandsen, Darin Erstad, and John Mabry, the team is doomed anyway, so taking a chance on a former prospect like Pena would make sense

A flier on both, a pox for all.

The Internet Baseball Nerd Reality Act of 2003 was passed by the good folks in our House of Representatives, making it illegal to bring up Jack Cust as the answer to any lineup question for any team above AA. I supported the law at the time, but am now starting to wonder if it isn't time to explore the idea again. After cratering in Baltimore at age 25, he bounced back to hit .293/.467/.549 in AAA last year. That's a .467 OBP. Zoinks. When he tries to play defense, he looks like the Tin Man trying to put the Cowardly Lion in a headlock, and it first it's funny, but then the headlock goes on for a little too long, and the Cowardly Lion's all like, "Dude, okay, that's enough," but the Tin Man just keeps going, and he's laughing a weird little laugh, and then the Cowardly Lion starts to spaz out and finally break free, and he's all, "Dude, what's your problem?". I don't know what that means, but that's how Cust plays defense, and it isn't good. If Niekro were on the roster, he could be a defensive replacement in the late innings, though, and it might be worth it to see if Cust can approach a .400 OBP in the majors. Of all of the free talent out there, Cust makes the most sense to acquire, even if only to stash in AAA.

The big issue is that when you start talking about players like Choi, Pena, or Cust, there is a very real downside. If you're a team with a top-ten payroll, and you go into the season with a $.5M player who has been derided by scouts (who have the stats to back them up), that's a recipe for a serious fan backlash. If the Giants bring in Carlos Lee for left and Alfonso Soriano for second, a little dumpster-diving will be tolerated. But that's not going to happen, and that's not going to happen. It's this mindset that leads to guys like Sean Casey coming around, it is certainly understandable. Part of it is that fans want players they've heard of, which is a pain in the ass at times, but the more important part is that this batch of minor league free agents and waiver bait isn't very good at all.

You can look for yourself. Nothing. Former prospects like Tagg Bozied and Ken Harvey are the most interesting of the lot, unless you have a hankering for AAAA talent like Kevin Barker and Graham Koonce. There are a few players on the list worth stashing on the end of a deep bench or putting at the end of a bullpen. Nothing you would want to see in a starting lineup. Give me Craig Wilson on a two-year deal, unless the Mariners want to donate Richie Sexson or the Phillies want to exchange bad contracts and give Pat Burrell to the Giants. I'd even be satisfied with the safety of a Sean Casey deal over the risk/reward imbalance of a Choi or Pena. Free talent is dead. Long live free talent. Roberto Petagine has left and gone away. Hey hey hey.

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Re: Free Talent
When you say store him at Fresno, what does that mean you expect Ishikawa to be playing at in 2007?  Or did you not take that into consideration and was just talking generally?  I was hoping he would get promoted, but the numbers were pretty not OK, so I can see him staying there too.  And damn ESPN screwed up the plan to resod the field in a different configuration that's more to the Giants liking.

Great post by the way, love the Tinman and Lion analogy, I loved the visuals that popped in my head.

I know Choi and Pena are lefties, so they wouldn't at least platoon with Ishikawa in AAA, is Cust a RHH or LHH?  If RHH, then they could platoon a bit, that's what one prospect book listed Ishikawa's potential as, a platoon 1B.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 20, 2006 8:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Cust plays more outfield than first base, for what it's worth.

Will Ishikawa be promoted to Fresno? That's a good question.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Jack Cust will forever be the centerpiece of my argument of why life isn't fair. I say: the Giants will most likely suck anyway so why not take a chance on Cust maybe he will be so grateful he'll go all Marcus Thames on us.

The same goes for Patagine, Choi, Pena, etc, etc. Line them up in spring training, pick one of them to break with the team and send the rest to AAA. If one does bad cut him and cycle in the next.

by Keenlow on Oct 20, 2006 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Well, part of the argument against that is that the Giants had done something like that in the past, picking up other's failures in hopes of finding real gold, guys like J.R. Phillips and Rick Lancellotti, are names that came quickest to mind, I'm sure there were others.  The problem is that each of them were fool's gold, amounting to not even a hill of beans, a hill of beanos maybe.

But I wouldn't mind a conga-line of hitters coming in - a la Bugs Bunny cartoon - and giving them all a try out.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 20, 2006 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
That's pretty much how we ended up with Chad Santos, too, isn't it?
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 20, 2006 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Cust plays more outfield than first base, for what it's worth.

I was surprised by that, as I remember him getting a lot more innings at first than he actually got.

And I was speaking in generalities when it came to Fresno/Choi/etc....

by Grant on Oct 20, 2006 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Cust hits lefty.

Does anyone else think that EME should look at Cust's career and realize that he is staring at his future?  He's the RHB version of Cust.  Better start working on that defense, Eddy.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 20, 2006 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Speaking of EME and 1B. I'm still holding out hope that he finally comes into the season healthy and the Giants stick him at 1B in Fresno. If healthy and playing 1B, he could suddenly be very close to the big leagues.

by mxmob33 on Oct 20, 2006 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
If by exchanging bad contracts the Giants get to give the Phillies Benitez in exchange for Burrell, then I'm beginning to think that may be the best option. Not that I like Burrell, but I'm ready to throw a parade the day Benitez is shown the door.

I'm extremely pessimistic about the Giants possible options at first, which is why, I guess, I'm for resigning Hillenbrand on the cheap. Assuming that is possible. I just don't see much out there to get excited over. I'd rather find a stop gap solution and hope Ishikawa comes around.

Glad to see the comments about Choi and Pena. I was beginning to think I'd wandered into alternate reality in which building a team around washed up prospects actually made sense.

yob

by Sayhey on Oct 20, 2006 9:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
I just figure that if you're going to have a 1B that sucks (and we can be pretty sure of that) - may as well suck for cheap and spend moneys elsewhere.

"Hillenbrand for cheap 1 year contract" is akin to "Burrell for Benitez" or  "$3 off anchor steam pints at AT&T".  They are just dreams.

I mean, why would you pay $5M/year for Shea Hillenbrand? $500K, OK, fine.

by zenbitz on Oct 20, 2006 9:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
We differ on what is cheap for an established major league hitter of very average capabilities. Hillenbrand may find other takers, but I'm betting he recognizes that his problems in Toronto drove his marketability down, and a short term contract here would be in his best interests. That's why I think he made it known he'd like to stay. If he wants a raise or wants a long term deal, I'd be the first to say let him walk. As a interim player until home grown talent matures or a better option comes available in the FA market or through reasonable trades, I like the idea of keeping him. What I don't want to see is the Giants trading away quality talent in their young pitchers for very dubious answers at first base.

You are probably right that the Benitez for Burrell swap is a pipe dream, but given the fact that Grant raised the possibility of an exchange of bad contracts, I raised the best possible scenario for the Giants. It puts the Giants on the hook for an extra 5 million or so, but it would be worth it just to get rid of the bum. Talk about overpaying for a player! Both contracts are horrible.

yob

by Sayhey on Oct 20, 2006 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
You know who might be good?

Roberto Petagine. Seriously. Run his 2006 Seattle line through PrOPS, and note the good peripherals. I'd like to take a flier on him.

by Salemicus on Oct 20, 2006 10:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jack Cust
I don't know much about Cust, so I went to look up his stats at The Baseball Cube. In 2003 (age 24), he got 73 ABs with Baltimore and put up an .878 OPS. In 2004 he had a so-so season in AAA (.791 OPS) and exactly one AB with Baltimore. Where's the crater that Grant refers to?
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 20, 2006 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jack Cust
Crater was probably too strong of a word, but hitting .230 with a .420 SLG in AAA with zero defensive talent is not good, regardless of what his OBP was. He didn't exactly go the way of Torcato, but if his .250/.400/.420 AAA stats the next year looked impressive, I'm sure the A's would have kept him around.

by Grant on Oct 20, 2006 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
It all depends on what the Giants' organizational strategy is going to be this year, or if they're even going to have one. I hope they strive to get younger and/or better, and there's not much in this batch of free agents in their thirties that will help them do either. If they find a way to add Burrell, Huff, Sexson or Kotchman that's one thing, but I'd much rather take my chances with Pena than spend a lot of money on a proven mediocrity like Casey. I'm not a Niekro fan (I've never touched the Niekrool-aid), but I'd rather stick him at first than sign Casey. If (when) Pena and/or Niekro tank, then pick up the next Ryan Shealy or Jack Cust or whoever. Repeat until condition clears. I'd rather go through a series of cheap young below average first baseman than get locked into a multi-year deal with an expensive old below average first baseman.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 12:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Grant, besides Floyd, I also think Wilkerson is a FA.  I have Dunn's contract as $10.5 milion this season with a 09 $13 million club option.

Since you've had 15 threads about 1Bman, here's my 15th priority aquisition list of the same.

  1. Pena/Sop Choi
  2. Aubrey Huff
  3. Craig Wilson
  4. Gary Sheffield (if Yankees don't exercise option)
I might be undervaluing his worth, but I think he can be had for a little north of Moise's Giant's contract.  Moises Redux.  If Bonds stays and their relationship is still litigious-like, well then forget it.  
5. Cliff Floyd
As with Sheffield and Millar, an aversion to bad defense must not a priority. An off-year and health challenges make for a short and sweet contract.  Has an upside.  Was routinely a very good hitter.  However, the Big Phone is a poor fit  and he may look elsewhere.
6. Craig Wilkerson
Made less than $4 million and had an off-year, so will be cheap.  Better hitter than Hillenbrand, career 108 OPS+.  Would probably need to platoon with Niekro or somebody.  A rich man's Mark Sweeney.
  1. Kevin Millar
  2. Pat Burrell (Trade)
  3. Kevin Dunn (Trade)
  4. Jimmy Sexson (Trade)
  5. Sean Casey
  6. Carlos Lee
  7. Dimiti Young
  8. Hillenbrand
  9. Nomar Garciaparra
  10. Mike Sweeeney
Big contract. Doesn't make sense for the Giants, because they likely wouldn't want to re-sign him in 2008.  I can't imagine the Royals would give him up too cheaply.  He's one of their few assets.
17. Casey Kotchman
Don't see why the Angels would want to trade him at this point.
18. Dan Johnson
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 20, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Jim, my man... I like the list, but it gets more unintelligible each time it's reprinted. I enjoyed the sound of "Jimmy Sexson" so that never bothered me too much, but now Jimmy has been joined by Craig Wilkerson and Kevin Dunn. And then there's "as with Sheffield and Millar, an aversion to bad defense must not a priority," which I've been fighting with for a few minutes now.

In my opinion, you should continue this trend. Why go halfway? Every time someone mentions first basemen on this site, post the list again, randomly changing three first or last names. Then, when Sabean signs Gloria Estefan to play first base in January, we'll know where he got the idea.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
You forgot "Dimiti Young," which I believe is pronounced "Da Mighty," which of course is G-Jim's ultra-sly reference to Bob Dylan's song, but actually the Mannfred Mann Earth Band version, because, uh, you know, when the Giants sign Jimmy Sexton, we're all going to greet him on opening day by screaming, "You da mann!"
Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Oct 20, 2006 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
It is a work of art, that I can't deny!  As I was telling Martin in his Jerome Williams diary, hard living is worth the senile lapses.  

Also, I'm just mixing my mediums.  There's Jimmy Sexton, Kevin Dunn is an actor and Craig Wilkerson invented the razor blade, I believe.

And Dimiti is a cute nickname of Young's, referring to his small baseball mit.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 20, 2006 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
I nominate that original post for the McCovey Chronicles Hall of Fame.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Oct 20, 2006 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Floyd I blew it on. I thought the Mets had an option on him. Wilkerson, though, I was pretty sure was still arb-eligble. No?

by Grant on Oct 20, 2006 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
7th year.  Doesn't that make him an FA?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 20, 2006 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
I don't know much about arb rules and service time, but for whatever reason he is arb eligible. He's a free agent after 2007. I'd think he could be had for a Hennessey-like player, but I'm not even sure if he'd be worth it.

by Grant on Oct 20, 2006 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
I suppose Wilkerson being non-tendered by the Rangers isn't 100% out of the question.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
2001 was about a half-year for him, so he became eligible for arbitration with 3 1/2 years of service time before the 2005 season... this year was his second year of arbitration, and next year should be his third and final year.

I think. (I don't have a firm grasp on the whole Super Two thing.)

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
It is confusing.  But I'll take Grant's word on it, because as Jimmy Sexton says "You da man!".

Well, Craig/Brad should go cheap in arbitration ($3-$3.5 mil?), but the Rangers may want to hang on to inexpensive production like that - he's only 30.  I'd give up Hennessey for him, only in that I don't have a very high opinion of Hennessey.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 20, 2006 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
<  I mean, why would you pay $5M/year for Shea Hillenbrand? $500K, OK, fine.  >

Because if you don't, you end up w/ H Choi. Or L Niekro.  Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
I think the thinking is Hilly reverts to his 280 BA ways, numbers Choi and Niekro are not even allowed to dream about.

by allfrank on Oct 20, 2006 12:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh... what the heck.
From Rotoworld...

"Free agent Erubiel Durazo went 2-for-4 and hit his third homer of the MPL season on Thursday.

Durazo is batting .429/.474/.743 in 35 at-bats. Things didn't work out for him in 2006, but since he'll be a full year and a half removed from Tommy John surgery next spring, he should still be capable of helping a team as a designated hitter."

I don't suppose we need a designated hitter, but you can lump Durazo in with the free talent crowd. Maybe Josh Phelps, too. And what ever happened to Calvin Pickering? To, internet nerds, Pickering used to make Petagine look like Neifi.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 12:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh... what the heck.
Forgot about Durazo, who has a lifetime 125 OPS+ in 2291 PA.  But he's essentially lost two years to his elbow and is now 33 (too young for the Giants).  He's challenged at 1B, so "an aversion to bad defense must not BE a prioity" for the Giants to sign him.

Maybe give him a Frank Thomas-like contract, say starting at $750,000 but topping off at $2.5 mil.

The thing about Calvin Pickering/Petagine types, is that there no successful MLB track reocrds to look at.  Whereas Seop Choi and Pena, albeit with sabermetrically biased results, each have over 1000 MLB PA and are still under 30.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 20, 2006 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh... what the heck.
I had thought about Durazo as well. I don't know what his current health situation is, but I do know that his last full season he put up an .919 OPS. I'd sacrafice some defense for that type of production, if the Giants thought he was still capable of it.

by mxmob33 on Oct 20, 2006 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
I just looked Jack Cust's stats on baseballcube, and have just jumped on the bandwagon.  The guy has put up monster numbers year after year in AAA, but never has been given a chance to start.

the giants should give him that chance, we have nothing to lose

Felix Rodriguez will never be forgiven.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Oct 20, 2006 12:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
Plus, this one-man show of Wizard of Oz that he apparently performs in the field will be worth the price of admission.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 20, 2006 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
His baserunning, err basecrawling, is even more entertaining.

Actual AP caption: Jack Cust (left) is tagged out by Aaron Boone as he crawls toward home in the 12th.

If you whine about Liriano, I will .gif you.

by Fog City Blues on Oct 20, 2006 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

FREE TINY!

Caption: "Bet you can't jump this high Marvin!"

Whatever happened to him?  He just seems to have dissapeared after 2004, did he go to Japan?  I thought I might have heard that once.

I blame F.P. Santangelo, while F.P. somehow blames Kuiper.

by WalrusMan on Oct 20, 2006 12:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: FREE TINY!
Damon Minor is with Desi Wilson somewhere (somewhere probably being a Rochester Big and Tall store) reminiscing about what might have been if they weren't both 6'7" with gargantuan strike zones.  Or they might just be pissed off that they didn't insist on being pitching prospects.  It's hard to say.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 20, 2006 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: FREE TINY!
I've never bought the "bigger strike zone" theory as why it's hard to be a good hitter if you're big.  It's always appeared to me that it's the guys with longer swings that have troubles, which is more likely if you have long arms.

Might be splitting hairs, but that's my theory.

Ramirez in 2007: I'm in!

by Goofus on Oct 20, 2006 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Free Talent
The depressing thing about what's available at first base is that the list of possible additions is about as exciting as the average Niekro at bat (major league level). That and the fact that what's available for some of the other holes we have to fill seems to be even more dismal. Don't mind me. This is the time of year I turn into Eeyore. Work is going to keep me from seeing most of the Series so it feels like the endless off season has already begun. It will take something dramatic from Sabean to snap me out of it.

by NearestNorwich on Oct 20, 2006 7:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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