More HOF Musings

by APGiantsFan on Jan 11, 2006 1:38 PM PST

With the discussion of the Hall of Fame it brought to mind something I have thought about from time to time. Teams with multiple HOF players. The Giants in the late 50's and early 60's had at least five - Mays, Marichal, McCovey, Cepeda and Perry. Has there been any other team with that many HOF players together at the same time that did not win a championship? Also, what team had the most HOF players together at the same time - probably some Yankees team.

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Re: More HOF Musings

I don't know the answer, but, if we're going to be sneaky about it, we can get to six: Duke Snider played with those five players on the 1964 team, and Warren Spahn played with them in 1965.

And don't get me started about the greatest San Francisco Giants pitcher of all time: Steve Carlton.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jan 11, 2006 1:50 PM PST reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

Off the top of my head, the Cubs come close. Jenkins, Banks, and Williams, with the perennial also ran, Ron Santo, are the stars of a great '60s team that won absolutely nothing.

by Sayhey on Jan 11, 2006 2:50 PM PST reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

Looking up the '30 Yankees, I come up with Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri, Combs, Dickey, Pennock, Ruffing, and Gomez. That eight might just be the record.

by Sayhey on Jan 11, 2006 3:04 PM PST reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

I've always said that was the best team that never one a championship ever (or in words of Charles Schulz: "or why couldn't McCovey have just it 2 feet higher!"). But to be fair, the window was a lot narrower than you suggest. '64 was Perry's first year as more than a roster filler, and '66 was Cepeda's last year, so it's 3 years of 5 full time HOFers. And at the same time they had one of the truly great-for-a-very-short-time guys, Jim Ray Hart. The final week of the '65 season may be the most heartbreaking in SF history, even worse than 93 and 02.

As for most HOFers, it's almost certainly the Yankees in the years following Murders Row, depending on exactly when a couple of these pitchers came over, I'd say at some point they had Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Bill Dickey, Tony Lazzeri, Earl Combs, Waite Hoyt, Lefty Gomez, Herb Pennock, and Red Ruffing on their team as starters. They also had Joe Sewell in there somewhere for a couple of years, but I don't think he coincided with Hoyt.

I think the Giants team with the most HOFers, though, for obvious reasons, was the one that went to 4 straight World Series (winning two!) back in the 20s. Aside from manager John McGraw, that team would have had Bill Terry, George "High Pockets" Kelly, Freddie Lindstrom, Frankie Frisch, Ross Youngs, Hack Wilson, Travis Jackson and Dave Bancroft, not to mention Casey Stengal playing left field. I don't think all of those guys played all 4 years together, but I'm pretty sure they were all there together at some point in that run.

by Roger on Jan 11, 2006 3:10 PM PST reply actions

Jim Ray Hart

Jim Ray Hart is one of my favorite Giants of all time. He was and is incredibly underrated. From 1964-1968 he AVERAGED 27 HR's/yr. Maybe that doesn't seem like much to fans of a team that has had the likes of Mays, McCovey, Cepeda and Bonds, but for one of the toughest pitching eras in the history of the game, it was just stupendous having him as a 5'th hitter in the lineup behind Mays and McCovey. Heck, 1968 was tilted so far to pitching that they raised the mound after that! Just think of having a hitter like that backing up Kent and Bonds!

It's always bugged me why a team with those 3 guys in the lineup and with Marichal and Perry on the mound didn't just run away with the pennant. Well, for one thing the pitchers behind Marichal and Perry just stunk. Secondly, look at the OBP's of the guys hitting in the first two spots in the order. Jesus Alou, Hal Lanier(maybe the worst hitter in the history of the franchise, even worse than Johnnie Lemaster if that's possible), Tito Fuentes. All of them had absolutely brutal OBP's.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 11, 2006 5:59 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Jim Ray Hart

It also had something to do with the quality of the competition. While the Giants had the '60s equivalent of murder's row (don't forget Tom Haller in that lineup, ) the Dodgers and the Cards also had incredible teams with much more pitching depth. BTW, the pitching after Marichal and Perry wasn't that bad some of those years (McCormick was very good and Sedecki was actually not a bad pitcher for the Giants - just not worth Cepeda.)

by Sayhey on Jan 11, 2006 8:30 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Jim Ray Hart

That's true. Where their pitching always broke down was in the bullpen. They really had no relievers to match up with the Dodgers. And, despite the presence of Mays and Hal Lanier, their defense was typically atrocious. God love him, but the McCovey in RF experiment was an adventure a minute. That said, they led the majors in wins for the decade so they obviously didn't have that many weaknesses. They just always managed to fall a couple of games back. 6 2nd place finishes in 7 years. Today of course, those would all have been playoff appearances, and who knows what happens in a short series.

by Roger on Jan 12, 2006 5:38 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Jim Ray Hart

While I agree the bullpen wasn't a match for the Dodgers, don't forget this guy. http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/linzyfr01.shtml

Linzy was the Giants closer for much of the '60s and a pretty good one.

by Sayhey on Jan 12, 2006 5:46 AM PST up reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

Oops, SayHey beat me because of my verbosity. But I'm pretty sure he missed Waite Hoyt on the 30 team.

by Roger on Jan 11, 2006 3:11 PM PST reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

You're right, I missed Hoyt. Here's the team for those who are interested.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1930.shtml

by Sayhey on Jan 11, 2006 8:33 PM PST up reply actions

Re: More HOF Musings

Just looking at teams with bunches of guys in the Hall, whether or not they won...

1975 Cincinnati Reds, with Bench, Perez, Morgan, Rose, and Concepcion, had about three and a half with two asterisks Hall of Famers, plus a Hall of Fame manager.

What surprised me was what I was sure I would find and didn't - a Cardinals team with a pile of Hall of Famers. Just browsing through their great teams shows how they were made out of a bunch of underappreciated solid guys, with only the occasional star. Cool.

by antinous on Jan 12, 2006 2:43 PM PST reply actions