HOF gives Will the finger
by The Balls of Summer on Jan 10, 2006 11:37 AM PST
69 comments
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060110b.htm
I know there is considerable debate over whether Clark is a Hall of Famer, but 4.4 percent?
That's bullshit.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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by rod beck on Jan 10, 2006 11:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
There was a great discussion somewhere (perhaps here) comparing The Thrill with McGwire, showing how his offensive value was pretty close to the slugger but McGwire will probably get a lot more votes because of his Maris HR chase with Sosa, though his "No Comment" at the Congressional hearings probably costed him a first year induction and perhaps pushed him out like Sutter and Rice, in terms of electibility.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 10, 2006 12:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
I'm with rod beck on this one; who voted for Greg Jefferies and why are they still allowed to vote? Weiss? If I close one eye and squint with the other just right while staring through rose-colored glasses, I still can't make out how anyone views him as a hall of famer.
by Sayhey on Jan 10, 2006 12:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
by The Balls of Summer on Jan 10, 2006 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
by Roger on Jan 10, 2006 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
Clark: 331
Sutter: 168
Career WARP3:
Clark: 101.6
Sutter: 55.2
I would've voted for both of them, but I think Clark has stronger credentials.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
I don't think either guy deserves to be in, honestly.
by Skaldheim on Jan 10, 2006 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
That said, that is an absolutely enormous gap in career value between the two players. Balls of Summer's contention that Clark is the better HOF candidate is perfectly defensible.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not?
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to Disagree
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Agree to Disagree
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That might have been...
by kenshin1 on Jan 10, 2006 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: That might have been...
by Skaldheim on Jan 10, 2006 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Notice how the Giants writer Rich Draper has a very different list than any of the other writers. But he did include The Thrill.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 10, 2006 1:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Lyle on Jan 11, 2006 7:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Sutter was, hands down, the best reliever of his era. He just flat out shut down opposing teams. He transformed the position of a closer from an important role to that indispensable one. He belongs.
by Sayhey on Jan 10, 2006 1:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Look, I loved Will and know that he's on the fence, but these HOF voters are nuts, ridiculous, absurd, etc. Sutter was a very good player, I know that. But he wasn't as good for as long as Gossage. (Not to mention, Gossage was used differently "hurting" his save numbers.) If a HOF voter is going to cast a vote for Sutter, how can he/she justify leaving Gossage off of that list? Beyond that, how could a HOF voter put either Sutter or Gossage in and leave Blyleven out?
Hell, so what is it HOF? Good for a long time, great for a short period of time, very good until an abrupt end? I mean Sutter had a couple of very good years and wasn't as good for as long as Gossage, right? So, with that criteria, why are Clark and Albert Belle considered higher? I'm happy for Sutter, he didn't do anything wrong. Nonetheless, to have him in and Gossage and Blyleven out is wrong.
And Cy Young? Bob Welch won a Cy Young! Steve Bodrosian won a Cy Young! LaMarr Hoyt won a Cy Young! I, however, never won a Cy Young. :)
by Kent on Jan 10, 2006 2:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
All the stats (like Win Shares) will say is he threw a lot of shutout 9th innings and that almost any pitcher can be expected to do that on any given day. By that determination no closer has or will ever belong in the Hall of Fame. But we Giants should know better than anyone the difference between sending a fear-inspiring Robb Nen out there in the 9th, and sending out an above average reliever (like Herges), just to see him wilt under the pressure. That's why baseball isn't played on paper (though many fand seem to believe it should be).
Will Clark was the best clutch hitter I ever saw. He was, is, and will always be my all-time favorite player. I carried his 1988 Topps card in my wallet for three years. I was obsessed with him to the point that I almost got into a fistfight in a New Orleans bar with a guy who claimed he was a racist redneck. When he signed with the Rangers, I slipped into a depression for weeks. But his long-term effect on the game was negligible at best.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Kent on Jan 10, 2006 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 10, 2006 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Another way to put it: From 1977 to 1982, Sutter was the second-best reliever in baseball, and then he added one last great year in 1984. From 1987 to 1992, Clark was the best hitter in baseball, and he added one last great year in 2000. (And then he had the decency to quit while he was still good.) Why is the first guy in the hall and the second off the ballot?
by antinous on Jan 10, 2006 2:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Players I'm okay got more votes than Will:
Jim Rice, Andre Dawson
Too similar to get way more votes:
Steve Garvey, Don Mattingly, Dave Parker
Maybe power impresses me more than it should, but the numbers these guys put up impress me (but not enough to be in the Hall, that is, unless they start letting guys like Gary Carter in):
Dale Murphy, Albert Belle
Are you f'in kidding me:
Alan Trammell, Dave Concepcion, Gary Carter (needs to be said any time the HofF comes up)
Why was he a lock (last year) and Will won't even make the next ballot:
Ryne Sandberg
Being solid over a long period isn't good enough for me, and I'm biased since I don't care much for pitchers anyway:
Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Orel Hershiser
Closers and saves are incredibly overrated, no closer should ever be in the Hall of Fame, and most above average starters that would never have a chance at the Hall would be outstanding closers:
Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Lee Smith
How did someone so fast score over 100 runs only once:
Willie McGee
Someone has a sense of humor:
Walt Weiss
Who?:
John Wetteland
Why?:
Rick Aguilera
I just realized this is long enough to be my first post in about 10 months. Consistency was always the challenge with blogging...
by Josh of TNGT on Jan 10, 2006 2:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Carter?
Oh, and I would put Trammell in, but that's only because I remember an era in which shortstops didn't hit.
by antinous on Jan 10, 2006 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Carter?
Bases loaded, down by three, full count, game 7 of the World Series... who do you want up:
Will Clark, Gary Carter, or Alan Trammell?
And no, I'm not saying that proves Will should be in, but I do think it does say something. I just can't imagine many pitchers cringing at either Carter or Trammell coming to the plate...
by Josh of TNGT on Jan 10, 2006 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Carter?
Carter hit 324 home runs at a premium defensive position, when that still meant something, and won many well-deserved Gold Gloves. The list of all-time great catchers goes something like Berra, Bench, Campanella, Fisk, Carter. (Hartnett, Dickey, Bresnahan...) Piazza will insert himself higher in that list when he retires, but that depends on how much his defense is counted against him.
by antinous on Jan 10, 2006 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Carter?
by Lyle on Jan 11, 2006 7:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Aguilera's 3 votes...
by EliminateMe on Jan 10, 2006 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
The role of "proven closer" and the save stat are overrated, but that doesn't necessarily mean the elite closers themselves are overrated. I certainly don't think Gossage and Rivera are overrated.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 10:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
I always thought of Mattingly as a HOFer when he played. His career I thought was similar to Sandberg's. Great for a good amount of time then injuries cut them off early.
I'd vote for Murphy as well if they'd let me.
I'm okay with Sutter and Gossage. A lot of top starters who wouldn't make the hall could've been great closers, but these two were dominant closers. Some closers belong, most don't. Hoffman and Rivera yes, Smith and Orosco no.
by keithr on Jan 10, 2006 3:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by David Arnott on Jan 10, 2006 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
And Mattingly did win 8 gold gloves.
I'm not saying he's better or worse than Sandberg or should be in the hall because Sandberg is. I'm just saying their career paths were similar.
by keithr on Jan 10, 2006 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Your last statement kind of proves his point that Sandberg is more qualified - they have similar career paths. Sandberg is at a position where offense is at a premium because the focus there is more on players athletic enough to field the position well, whereas the focus at 1B is for someone who can jack the ball and be OK on defense. That makes a Sandberg at 2B a rare HOF caliber player but Sandberg starting at 1B a regular, run of the mill guy, offensively. If I remember right, I recall an interview noting that Sandberg was actually a SS but the opportunity was at 2B with the Cubs.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 11, 2006 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Responding to a couple of other comments...
Goose Gossage and Bert Blyleven. I have to believe there's some sort of mass vendetta against them for personality issues, or something. It's utterly ridiculous that neither has been inducted yet.
Jack Morris was the Curt Schilling of the 80s. The numbers don't quite add up, but reputation has to count for something in this exercise, doesn't it? I mean, the guy was the ace of three different World Series champions. Come on, people!
Ryne Sandberg was THE second baseman of a generation. It was him, Lou Whitaker a full notch below, and then NOBODY until Roberto Alomar came along. Will Clark was merely in the conversation as THE first baseman and was always eclipsed by somebody.
Here's another comment starter...
Yea or Nay on the Hall:
Nomar Garciaparra
Albert Belle
Edgar Martinez
Jim Edmonds
Robb Nen
Jorge Posada
Barry Larkin
Craig Biggio
Trevor Hoffman
Troy Glaus
by David Arnott on Jan 10, 2006 3:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Albert Belle--Nay, but worth a look for huge numbers in a fairly short career
Edgar Martinez--I wouldn't vote for a DH
Jim Edmonds--much bigger numbers than I would've suspected. I'd need to see more, and then figure out how to adjust considering he played in the steroid era
Robb Nen--no. I'd have trouble voting for any closers, and if I did, they'd have to be the best of the best.
Jorge Posada--Not even close.
Barry Larkin--No, consistently good isn't good enough.
Craig Biggio--No. See Larkin, Barry.
Trevor Hoffman--yes if I voted for closers, no since I don't (vote for closers, or for that matter, vote at all)
Troy Glaus--he'd need to play several more seasons, raise his batting average, and then I'd have to adjust for steroid-era inflation
As you can tell, the Hall would be much smaller if I voted. But I'd still have a special Will plaque for something (just not a regular Hall slot)...
by Josh of TNGT on Jan 10, 2006 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Kent on Jan 10, 2006 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't share your...
by kenshin1 on Jan 10, 2006 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin???
by Lyle on Jan 11, 2006 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Sayhey on Jan 10, 2006 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Nomar -- the injuries have killed his chances, unless he bounces back big and for a long time.
Belle -- like Will Clark, put up some great stats, but left too soon (involuntarily, in Belle's case)
Edgar -- if you think DHs belong in the Hall, then Edgar belongs. I still think the DH is an atrocity, but I am undecided about their Hall-worthiness.
Edmonds -- no.
Nen -- I'm for retiring his number, but he didn't last long enough to be in the HoF discussion.
Posada -- if he wasn't a Yankee, we wouldn't talk about his HoF chances.
Larkin -- probably not?
Biggio -- I'd have to look up his numbers; I wouldn't be surprised if he got in.
Hoffman -- on the fence, depending on the rest of his career; Rivera is in for sure.
Glaus -- nope.
by Skaldheim on Jan 10, 2006 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Albert Belle - No, but it's interesting.
Edgar Martinez - Argh, argh, argh, maybe, um, no.
Jim Edmonds - Fantastic player, but fewer than 1600 games played so far. Will have to do great as an older player.
Robb Nen - As much as I love the guy, no.
Jorge Posada - If he has four or five more excellent seasons.
Barry Larkin - Yes, I think so. Such a complete game, at a premium position.
Craig Biggio - Holy smokes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. He did a great job at two premium defensive positions, got on base, hit for moderate power, stole bases without getting caught, and almost never grounded into double plays. Most of his career has been spent in an extreme pitching environment. He's Joe Morgan redux.
Trevor Hoffman - If a reliever belongs in the Hall, this reliever belongs.
Troy Glaus - I just don't see him avoiding the injury bug.
by antinous on Jan 10, 2006 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Since This is the Internet,
I didn't post my own opinions right away because I didn't want to color the knee-jerk reactions, so here goes:
Nomar - If he gets rejuvenated and has two more All Star type seasons, then he will have sidled up next to Immortality and bought her a drink.
Albert Belle - I feel strongly about this. Albert Belle was one of the two best hitters in baseball for about eight seasons (Bonds), and is, with Manny and perhaps Sheffield, one of the three best hitters of his generation. I wrote a more detailed and passionate appeal here.
Edgar Martinez - I also feel strongly about this guy. No. No. No. No! Okay, so he was a fantastic hitter, but he arguably hurt his team by NEVER playing in the field. Paul Molitor played in the field a significant number of games each year. David Ortiz still pulls on the glove every once in a while. Edgar? After 1994, the most games he played in the field in any year was 8. That's it. I have to hold that as a huge strike against him.
Jim Edmonds - Hell yeah. The second best CF of his generation, right up there with Bernie Williams on the All-Underrated Team. The only guy who's eclipsed him is Griffey. Look at his numbers someday. I think it's no surprise that his similarity scores come up with guys dissimilar to him, because there is no one else like him.
Robb Nen - No. It's been covered above.
Jorge Posada - I'm gonna have to say yes. Again, look at how much he's produced. After Piazza and perhaps Pudge Rodriguez (both surefire HOFers), has there been a better catcher in the past ten years? He's a full time catcher, and only once in his career has he posted an OPS+ below league average, and in the 2000-04 stretch it was way above. Even though he's going to decline at any moment and should start playing more DH and perhaps 1B, he'll pass 200 HRs. Remember, he would've been a three-four-five hitter on most other teams over the past nine seasons. Would that change how people see him?
Barry Larkin - Kenshin made the point.
Craig Biggio - The Lou Whitaker to Alomar's Sandberg, or is it Kent's Sandberg? Or is it the modern day Robin Yount? The guy was a dominant player for such a long time that it'd be hard to keep him out. And I do mean dominant, in both the old school "keeps pitchers busy, is a pesky guy you don't want to face" way, and in the sabermetric "for his position and time, he was remarkably valuable due to his combination of patience, power, and speed" way.
Trevor Hoffman - My New Yorker friends laughed out loud when I once told them I'd have a hard time picking between Hoffman or Rivera for my closer. Yeah, it really isn't that difficult a decision, but Hoffman is a lot closer than you might realize. His best season was better than Rivera's best season, and he's had more good seasons than Mariano. In fact, the primary difference between the two is that Hoffman has had far fewer playoff appearances. I feel that most closers have a minimal impact on the game, but the best ones are truly valuable. Rivera and Hoffman go together in the same breath as the only two closers who have been truly valuable for an extended period of time since Eckersley. So yes, he's a HOFer in my book.
Troy Glaus - Quick, without looking, how old is he? How many home runs has he hit? Glaus is entering his age 29 season and has already hit 219 jacks. And that's with two seasons cut short by injury. He's already cleared 40 home runs twice, and reached 30 HRs two other times. I'm telling you, barring injury, he'll be a stud yet again in Toronto. Let's say he averages 30 HRs the next three years, 25 the next two, and 20 the next two, as a conservative estimate. If so, he will have reached 400 HRs before his age 36 season. Yeah, it's too early, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he ends up in the Hall, remembered as a Hank Greenberg type of home run hitter with a little less AVG.
by David Arnott on Jan 10, 2006 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Albert Belle: I wouldn't vote for him, but I wouldn't be upset if he made it
Edgar Martinez: Hall of Famer as a hitter, not as a player
Jim Edmonds: Yes - one of the most underappreciated stars of his generation.
Robb Nen: I'm a huge Nen fan, but no
Jorge Posada: His decline phase will hurt his rate stats; I don't think his peak was strong enough, but will probably have a better case than most people think.
Barry Larkin: Close call but yes. I agree with kenshin's point that the recent ss offensive explosion will hurt his chances
Craig Biggio: On the first ballot. Not even debatable in my book. antinous and Dead Teddy nailed this one.
Trevor Hoffman: Close call, but yes
Troy Glaus: Can I get back to you in a few years? He's not on a HOF career path - not 1 top 10 MVP finish, only 1 top 10 OPS+ finish
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Career Win Shares:
Clark 331
Lynn 280
Baylor 262
O'Neill 259
Career WARP3:
Clark 101.6
O'Neill 91.1
Lynn 89.4
Baylor 72.5
Career EqA:
Clark .312
Lynn .297
O'Neill .295
Baylor .287
Career OPS+:
Clark 138
Lynn 130
O'Neill 120
Baylor 118
Clark has better rate stats and better counting stats than those Hall of Very Gooders. Its perfectly reasonable to support Clark and not support the Fred Lynns, Don Baylors and Paul O'Neills of the world.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 10:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Albert Belle - Nope. But way more worthy then...
Edgar Martinez - Great hitter, but you gotta play defense, or have 3000 hits, 500 homers or something like that.
Jim Edmonds - Jesus
Robb Nen - Love him, but no way.
Jorge Posada - nope
Barry Larkin - Maybe....hmmm...screw it YES, I mean ~10 All-Star appearances and an MVP has to mean something.
Craig Biggio - Gold glove second baseman with huge offensive numbers? I say its a go.
Trevor Hoffman - Nope, save numbers are great and he's tough, but the number of closers in the Hall should be very few.
Troy Glaus - Very unlikely, but the only person with any upside in his career. Maybe he gets healthy like McGwire did and starts leading the league in homers every year.....w/out the steroid spectre over him.
by hammystyle on Jan 10, 2006 4:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Who questions whether Griffey is a Hall of Famer? If Ken Griffey, Jr. isn't a Hall of Famer, then ..... well, I don't know what, but that's just crazy talk.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 10, 2006 9:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
I agree with everyone who says that this is crazy talk: Griffey is outright a HOFer, get the plaque done now and ready for when he is eligible, with a Mariners cap on.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 11, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Skaldheim on Jan 11, 2006 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
For me to think a guy belongs in the HOF, he needs to have a larger-than-life aura about him. It's hard to describe, but here are some examples:
-If he's visiting your town, you look forward to seeing him play and people are talking about it that day. (Bonds, Randy Johnson, Vlad, Shinjo, Clemens and Dontrelle are good current examples)
-If you get to the game and he's not playing, you feel really let down
-You tend to watch the player more, even if he's not involved in the action
-You don't go to the bathroom if he's due up
-You say "Ooo!" and "Wow!" when he does something well
-In the case of relief pitchers, an excitement/buzz fills the air in anticipation of him entering a game
-You feel a little sense of history watching someone you know will be remembered as a great player
Of all the eligible players, only Gossage had that mystique for me.
Of the players in the "comment starter", I'd sat Hoffman comes the closest.
by Goofus on Jan 10, 2006 5:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
I didn't grow up a Giants fan, so here's my perspective on Clark. I thought he was "ballplayer" and a damn good one and I liked watching him play. He didn't cross the line into HOF greatness though.
by Goofus on Jan 10, 2006 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shinjo?
You were just testing to see who was paying attention, right?
by EliminateMe on Jan 10, 2006 6:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Shinjo?
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 10, 2006 6:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Shinjo?
by Goofus on Jan 10, 2006 7:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Pants Man on Jan 10, 2006 6:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bert belongs in the Hall of Fame
Looking at his stats, he was a regularly starting pitcher at age 19(!). Still, he was regularly at 3.00 ERA or much below until he turned 28 and had an ERA of 3.60, upon which he went on a slow decline as he aged, though he still had 4 more seasons in the next 14 where he pitched like he was young again. His ERA+ was under 100 just twice in his first 18 seasons, just five in his 22 seasons as a starter. His WHIP was almost always low, below 1.30 and was above 1.40 twice in his career, two of his last three seasons.
He was a horse for most of his career. He had one season starting 40 games, two starting 38, four starting 37, two starting 36, one starting 35, one starting 34, two starting 33, for a total of 13 seasons where he started more than most starting pitchers do today. Plus he has two more at 32 starts. And he had a total of 252 complete games, with seasonal highs of 25, 24 (34 years old, 3.16 ERA), 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, and 15. But he still had a 3.31 ERA for his career while the league average was 3.90. He had 15 seasons where he was in the Top 10 in strikeouts.
Baseball-reference's similarity list has Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, Tommy John, Robin Roberts, Tom Seaver, Jim Katt, Early Wynn, Phil Niekro, and Steve Carlton as his similar players.
If that don't scream HOF, I don't know what does.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jan 10, 2006 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Bert belongs in the Hall of Fame
I would probably break down eventually, though. The numbers start to take on more weight as personal impressions (like the fact that I never put Blyleven in my "superstar" binders when I was collecting cards in the seventies and eighties) start to fade.
Ron Kittle cards spent a few years in the "superstar" binders... perhaps this shouldn't be the main factor.
by Pants Man on Jan 10, 2006 7:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Bert belongs in the Hall of Fame
by Josh of TNGT on Jan 11, 2006 9:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Bert belongs in the Hall of Fame
I always roll my eyes when people complain about the fans' All-Star selections. The key word is "Star". Just like in the movies, people want to sees "stars", not necessarily the best actors.
by Goofus on Jan 11, 2006 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pardon the blunt retort, but
- Considering for a second that a player's reputation mattered, how exactly do you have any idea whether or not Biggio or Larkin were ever feared? And, what does that mean in any case?;
- I think that if you look at Larkin and, especially, Biggio's numbers, relative numbers, and comparable numbers you'll realize that what your eyes, your perceptions have deceived your objectivity.
- Hall of Fame. Right. I concur, it should be hard to be allowed entrance...why Sutter shouldn't be there (sorry Bruce). Nonetheless, Larkin and Biggio ARE worthy. They ARE worthy relative to all time infielders, to all time players at their positions, to all time numbers, to relative numbers of their day, to comparable numbers of their day, and on and on and on. Biggio and Larkin were both much better than you seem to realize.
by Kent on Jan 11, 2006 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pardon the blunt retort, but
by Josh of TNGT on Jan 12, 2006 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Bert belongs in the Hall of Fame
by Sayhey on Jan 10, 2006 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Bert Blyleven absolutely should be in the Hall. Of the others on the above list, I'd include Hoffman for sure. Somebody (Martin?) please give me some stats to make me want to vote for Biggio - I'm not yet convinced, but willing to be so.
by Lyle on Jan 11, 2006 8:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Biggio
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml
2795 Hits - 260 HR - 407 SB - 1697 R - 1063 RBI - 1097 BB
Plus he is the all-time leader in getting drilled at the plate. Now don't get me wrong, I hated Biggio for a long time, but he is a great player. If he gets to 3K, he is a lock.
by rod beck on Jan 11, 2006 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Biggio
by Goofus on Jan 11, 2006 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
Biggio 414
Number of HOF eligible position players with 400 or more win shares who are not in the Hall of Fame: Zero.
2) Career Hits:
Biggio 2,795
Biggio has stated that reaching 3,000 hits is a goal. You know the Astros will let him stick around long enough to reach 3,000.
Number of HOF eligible players with 3,000 or more hits who are not in the Hall of Fame: Zero.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 11, 2006 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and:
Biggio 4165
Number of HOF eligible players who have reached base 4165 or more times who are not in the Hall of Fame: Zero.
by Fog City Blues on Jan 11, 2006 12:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: HOF gives Will the finger
by Kent on Jan 11, 2006 12:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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