Young pitchers - cannon fodder for the Giants

by APGiantsFan on Aug 5, 2005 11:53 AM PDT Comment 18 comments

As we all know, the Giants have a history of using young pitchers as the cannon fodder for their trades to bring veterans to the big club. A list of the young pitchers traded away in the past four plus years is revealing:

Jason Grilli
Nate Bump
Todd Ozias
Erasmo Ramirez
Ryan Vogelsong
Kevin Joseph
Felix Diaz
Ryan Meaux
Jeff Verplancke
Clay Hensley
Kurt Ainsworth
Damon Moss
Ryan Hannaman
Joe Nathan
Boff Bonser
Francisco Liriano
Greg Bruso
Carlos Villanueva
Glenn Woolard
Josh Habel
Jerome Williams
David Aardsma
Jesse Foppert

We all agree that we think the Nathan trade was a huge mistake and most think the Williams trade was just wrong and a lot of us think the Foppert trade was ill advised. What do those three trades have in common as opposed to most of the other trades of our young pitchers? Each of those trades involved pitchers that had at least some major league experience. Most of the rest involved pitchers with only minor league experience. So, why did we trade away pitchers with some major league experience - perhaps because the other big league teams have reviewed these same facts [that most of the minor league pitchers traded by the Giants don't reach the big leagues] and are less likely to take on strictly minor league talent from the Giants.

A review of some of the players the Giants received in the trades is also enlightening:

Rob Nenn
Livan Hernandez
Andres Galaraga
Jason Schmidt
Jason Christenson
Kenny Lofton
Bill Mueller
Merken Valdez
Matt Herges
Sidney Ponson
A.J.
Eric Young
Wayne Franklin
Dave Burba
LaTroy Hawkins
Randy Winn

I think you will agree that most (not all) of these players have assisted the Giants in compiling winning seasons for five of the past six years.

I'm just laying out some facts. I am not in total agreement with the Giants trading away their young experienced pitchers and I certainly thought the Jerome Williams trade was a mistake the moment I heard about it. I was not as upset about the Nathan, et. al. trade, but in retrospect - it was certainly a stinker. I also am not sure how much more Randy Winn brings to the table over Tucker and Ellison and don't like to give up on Foppert. Perhaps they think Hennessey, Correia and Cain are enough of a young future rotation.

The Giants probably can't get away with trading only prospects anymore, which requires the Giants to think longer and harder when considering trading away our young pitchers. At least they didn't trade Matt Cain.

Just food for thought.

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And the thing is....

How many of those young pitchers have I heard of outside of the San Jose Giants?

Ryan Vogelsong (and he went downhill fast)
Joe Nathan (he went uphill fast)
Jerome Williams (dunno)
David Aardsma (so far he's just the record for first in the books)
Jesse Foppert (had potential, but it remains to be seen his true impact)

Now I'm not sure of the other's impacts on teams, but I've never heard of them outside of A Ball. And the people we did get seemed to all make some sort of contribution to a playoff run. That is of course, except for Mr. Ponson.

And with the Bill Mueller deal, what exactly happened there? I thought we traded him AWAY for Worrell. Did we trade for him back somehow?

Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Aug 5, 2005 12:22 PM PDT reply actions

Mueller

Yeah, a couple years back we picked him up in July for the stretch run and then let him sign with the Bo Sox the next year and lead their league in hitting. Oh well - who knew.

by APGiantsFan on Aug 5, 2005 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions

Bill Mueller

was probably my favorite Giant since Will Clark who was in turn my favorite Giant since Chili Davis.

by SF Pete on Aug 5, 2005 12:44 PM PDT reply actions

Good point

Also consider that the Giants system is lower on depth lately.

by irwin on Aug 5, 2005 1:01 PM PDT reply actions

you forgot liriano and bonser

who both went with nathan and are moments away from coming up

by bacci40 on Aug 5, 2005 1:57 PM PDT reply actions

Maybe our picks have just sucked

One thing I am concerned about is, shouldn't we have produced some draft picks to some mlb roster somewhere? Are we just lousy at picking the right players. Look at the A's, the MLB players that their draft picks have produced over the last 8 years.

by out machine on Aug 5, 2005 2:03 PM PDT reply actions

Position player picks sucked

Yeah, we never pick useful position players, though the last couple of drafts are a slight change to that. (EME! EME! EME!) Old Sabean had a pretty clear draft strategy:

Draft a polished, emotionally mature college pitcher.
Put him in a league that's too easy.
Trade your 1.35 ERA "prospect" for a real player.
Profit!

These days, I don't see a pattern. However, when Lewis and Clark produces its first Hall of Famer, he'll be wearing a Giants cap to Cooperstown.

by antinous on Aug 5, 2005 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Lewis and Clark

heh

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Aug 5, 2005 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions

how many pitchers have panned out...

as useful MLB guys? I really don't think he has done all that well at identifying pitchers that turned out to be on MLB rosters. I sure would have liked to see more of them turn out. Jury is still out on Foppert, Williams, Bonser, Liriano and a couple others, but a whole lot of the top picks have simply shown how inexact the baseball draft is.

by out machine on Aug 5, 2005 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Steve Decker

HOF Manager.....

by irwin on Aug 5, 2005 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions

Nicely laid out

I think there's a real divide between Old Sabean, the crafty guy who was fleecing the league in exchange for underrated talent, and New Sabean, desperate to make that last run before Barry retires. I think you missed one of his best trades: turning Allen Watson and Fausto Macey into J.T. Snow. For a good long time, it was accurate to say that the only decent player Sabean ever gave up was Keith Foulke, and that was part of the 1997 "White Flag" (for the Chisox) deal that may have helped a weak team squeak into the postseason. Gosh, that was a lot of fun.

However, the Nathan trade was troubling. I (wrongly) supported trading Nathan, as he had an injury history, and, prior to 2003, had never had a good strikeout rate at any level. When he busted out with 79 great innings of work at age 28, I figured we had just seen his career year, and we should sell while the stock was high. That said, A.J. was NOT the guy I wanted, not at all.

Every trade after that has been shitty. :)

by antinous on Aug 5, 2005 2:04 PM PDT reply actions

2006

If Hawkins and Winn can contribute to a nice run next year and Foppert and Williams never pan out then those trades aren't bad. Although I am sure people will say that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

by SF Pete on Aug 5, 2005 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions

True

You're right, if all those conditions are met. Sabean knows something we don't about all these guys; we're just not sure what it is. :)

Still, it burns me up that Linden is hitting like Mickey Mantle in AAA, and we're employing Ellison, Winn, and Tucker. Maybe he won't ever be a real MLB hitter, but we won't know unless we get him 300 PAs in a row. The only way to do it is to play him now, when the games don't matter.

by antinous on Aug 5, 2005 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions

Good point, AP

To me that was the lesson of the Nathan trade... you should be a lot more protective of pitchers who have had success at the big league level. And that's why the Jerome Williams trade pissed me off than any trade Sabean has ever made.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Aug 5, 2005 3:09 PM PDT reply actions

the self back patting

The thing is, Sabean record 3 years ago was admirable- now, its bloody awful.

Way back when I thought I had the patience to write, I (self-back patting starts here) had a look at this:

http://www.ballparkanalysis.com/articles/020104.htm

The thing is, every trade, and I mean every trade since that date, you can reasonably argue the Giants lost. That's a remarkable turnaround - and it hints that Sabean really has lost it - or something has changed.

by Aadik on Aug 5, 2005 6:29 PM PDT reply actions

One More

Doesn't exactly damage your argument but for completeness sake:

Scott Linebrink traded to Houston for Doug Henry late in the 2000 season. Linebrink had been starting with the Giants for a couple of weeks when he was traded for Henry who left as a free agent after the season (but pitched effectively while there, even in the horrid series against the Mets).

Linebrink was relatively ineffective with Houston but has turned into one of the Padres best middle relievers. BTW, Clay Hensley has recently joined the Padres bullpen as well, and pitched effectively. I think he was traded for Herges.

by Roger on Aug 5, 2005 9:43 PM PDT reply actions

You're right

At that time though, Linebrink looked decent , but not great- I had done at the time of the Ponson deal. But point is taken. I guess it just seems to appear that all the chickens are coming to hatch, so to speak..

by Aadik on Aug 8, 2005 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Linebrink

Was a top prospect for a time, but was derailed by repeated arm problems. At some point [I think with San Diego], he finally reworked his mechanics to relieve the stress.

by irwin on Aug 8, 2005 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions