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Around SBN: Chan Sung Jung Wins Thriller Over Dustin Poirier

Weighing In

The trade to get Randy Winn encapsulates everything wrong with how the Giants are constructed. It represents a failure of imagination, and a squandering of resources. And it's a good trade for the Giants as they are presently constructed.

The first step in embracing this trade is to believe Jesse Foppert was never going to be more than roster filler for the Giants. The Jerome Williams trade was the equivalent of sending your kid  to military school for taking a sip of boxed wine at the family Christmas party. Williams had been, at the very least, an above-average pitcher at each level he pitched, and usually much younger than his competition.

Foppert was the pitcher who was to unsheathe the sword in the stone; the hometown kid who was going to ape Tom Seaver's career. The scouting reports became myth, as Baseball America might as well have had a FoppWatch meter on its homepage. An easy 99-mph. Picture perfect mechanics. Hard, biting slider. He struck out 28 batters for every nine innings he pitched, and was poised to be one of the greatest......

And then you can hear the record player screech to a stop. There was the Tommy John surgery, of course, but of more concern was the velocity that happened in Fresno, and stayed in Fresno. He left the Giants with a sneaky-fast 89-mph fastball, and nothing resembling a second pitch or good control. If Foppert has success as a major-league pitcher, it will be down the line. There is to be no immediate, pre-arbitration success with Foppert. Whatever success he might find will come in the Jose Lima/Jaime Moyer mold, miles away from his original organization. His departure is a touch sad, but Randy Winn is a solid player. If it takes the ethereal promise of Jesse Foppert to get a fair complement to Jason Ellison, then you at least hope the parting gifts are nice.

The more disturbing part of the deal is the toss-in of Yorvit Torrealba. Not that Torrealba was some great flea market find for the Mariners. He is what he is, which is a great backup and harmless starter. What makes it disturbing is the renewal of vows between the Giants and Mike Matheny. The Giants have problems. The problems are almost exclusively pitching related, and they will likely need to devote serious capital to address them. Having a player like Torrealba, who is a superb defender and acceptable hitter, would have allowed the Giants to fill a starting position cheaply, and allowed them to spend a touch more money for a pitcher. Brian Sabean's wish-list for his starting catcher obviously begins and ends at defense, with offense a negligible concern. Perfect. Try and foist the $6M or so left on Matheny's contract on whomever might be interested in the offseason.

That was never to be. The front office is still attached to the idea that Matheny is the blue blanket to the pitching staff's inner Linus. As if the Giants collective ERA would be 6.00 without the mystical pitcher-tamer with the curly locks. And if Matheny is, and always was, the Giants guy, then Yorvit was good for little more than a warm feeling of security in the tummy. Having Foppert and Yorvit off the team, and Winn on, makes the Giants a better team. Nothing earth-shattering, mind you. With the trade, the Giants moved from 73-win team to 74-win team, and somewhere Ricky Watters is muttering, "For what? For whom?"  It isn't often that a trade can help your favorite team, and still leave you discouraged.

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Thing is....
Giants still haven't decided on a person to send down........
Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Jul 30, 2005 10:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Maybe some team will be looking....
For a Veteran pinch hitter.  I think that Grissom can still fufill that roll.  Maybe we can get a pitcher for him.
Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Jul 30, 2005 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

No Way
Unless Feliz or Alfonzo gets traded, Ellison hits the bus to Fresno.  Grissom's return to health is a key component of the Giants race to the pennant, doncha know?

by Roger on Jul 30, 2005 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, whoever gets sent down,
let us all hope that the Giants take this opportunity of another outfielder coming to get rid of sanchez completely, as well as burning anything he touched so as to remove all traces of his ever existing.

by Larson2042 on Jul 30, 2005 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Remember Joe Nathan
Showed promise as a youngster, much like Foppert. Then arm problems and a long rehab. It took it 2 year to get from 88-90 back to 96. I predict the same for JF.

This trade is the height of stupidity.

I do not believe I have sufficient whiskey in my house to prevent me from being pissed off until 4 a.m.

This will end up being worse than the Wayne Franklin trade

by irwin on Jul 30, 2005 10:41 PM PDT reply actions  

at the time
we traded Nathan, he had already had success at the major league level post TJ surgery.  Foppert has yet to have success at any level (albeit in a short time)
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 30, 2005 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Any Level?
He had a great deal of success at every level in the minor leagues pre-injury with some incredible peripherals (14.9 k/9 in 2001, 12.4 in the PCL woohee).  My only slightly humorous prediction: 3 years from now Foppert, Williams, and Liriano renew acquaintances at the All Star game, while the Giants are halfway home to their 4th straight 4th place finish and we all thank god that the Rockies exist.

by Roger on Jul 30, 2005 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

my point about nathan
was that it took him a long time to get his fastball back. And he had less major surgery than foppert. JF is still in the recovery portion of TJ, not even counting they changed his delivery.

Foppert may still get back to 95+

Even if he doesn't, he still may be effective at 88-90, if he adds command.

by irwin on Jul 30, 2005 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

less major?
With all due respect, I think I would characterize Nathan's shoulder injury as being more a severe injury than Foppert's ligament needing to be replaced by TJ surgery.  The shoulder is incredibly complex, or at least I think that is part of the lesson we learned from Robb Nen's attempted comebacks.

FWIW, I was a big advocate of getting Winn a couple years ago.  Now I agree with those who say the moves does not make sense for a team destined to finish 3rd or 4th in the division this year.  

As for Torrealba, I think most Giants fans overrate him.  His weaknesses as a hitter are less exposed when a manager can pick the games when he does and does not start.  Given the past reports about how much Torrealba had wanted to be traded, I think the Giants did him a favor, and it's hard to fault them for that.

That's my two cents.

by steve S on Jul 31, 2005 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

the shoulder
I thought it was just a minor scope that took a long time to recover from, not a labrum or rotator cuff tear that takes TJ-like periods. Sure, it ended up being a long recovery, but it wasn't supposed to be.

It's not that Winn won't help the team a little, it's that he doesn't address their problems in a meaningful way.

Yorvit is no all-star, but I still think there would be no significant difference between he and Matheny of the course of the year.

by irwin on Jul 31, 2005 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

my point about nathan
was that it took him a long time to get his fastball back. And he had less major surgery than foppert. JF is still in the recovery portion of TJ, not even counting they changed his delivery.

Foppert may still get back to 95+

Even if he doesn't, he still may be effective at 88-90, if he adds command.

by irwin on Jul 30, 2005 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whatever
You doubters will be sooooo sorry when the Giants win 13 in a row to pull to .500.

by Dan from NM on Jul 30, 2005 10:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Wake me up
When that happens.

Winn will go 4-0 with a 3.12 era, save 8 games, and hit 9 homeruns.

by xanthan on Jul 30, 2005 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

unfortunately...
he has an arm like a 6 yr old girl... one year removed from TJ surgery
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 30, 2005 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

this is the reason
why the giants will never win a world series in my lifetime.

first it was jerome williams and aardsma for a journeyman reliver.

now it's foppert for a journeyman outfielder. sure winn probably is better than anything we have out there right now. but the giants have to realize something. THIS TEAM IS GOING NOWHERE!!!!!!!! There is absolutely NO EXCUSE in the world to trade one of our young commodities just so we can win a few more games now. You have to remember, Foppert is one year removed from having major arm surgery! He healed extremely fast but it takes about 2 years to fully recover from tommy john. It was damn near a miracle that he even was able to pitch this year. GIVE HIM SOME TIME! He's 24 years old for christ sake! What the fuck are we gonna do with a 31 year old career .280 hitter?!? Is he the final piece to our sad jigsaw puzzle? I don't think so...

Yet we felt it was necessary to give up yet another one of our young pitchers just so we can say we made a move at the deadline.

It's fucking pathetic.

by Bruins17 on Jul 30, 2005 10:53 PM PDT reply actions  

Yup
I hate this team. Fundementally, I hate Sabean's absolute intolerance of young players at any sigh of  failure, while "proven" veterans can screw up for years on end.

by Aadik on Jul 31, 2005 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Guys, it's okay
Isn't wallowing in our own self-pity after Sabes descends even further into panicked short-sightedness just another day in the office for us Giants fans at this point?

Watching management's self-immolation is almost fun. I'm gonna make a drinking game of it, just as soon as my head clears from the unmitigated stupidity.

Two shots for every Win Share Nathan/Foppert/Williams/Aardsma contribute to their teams in the coming years!

by Steve on Jul 31, 2005 12:06 AM PDT reply actions  

er
"just as soon as my head clears from the unmitigated stupidity OF THIS TRADE" is what I meant. Though I also could have meant the past several. Clearly I'm not all, uh, clear yet.

by Steve on Jul 31, 2005 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

More Shots
> Two shots for every Win Share
> Nathan/Foppert/Williams/Aardsma
> contribute to their teams in the
> coming years!

Not to mention Bonser, Liriano, Torrealba, Brower, or Hermanson, or the contributions made in the past few years by Ortiz, Sanders, Lofton, Mueller, and Witasick, since they left the Giants.

by SnowLeopard on Jul 31, 2005 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

So I guess this trade means the Giants will not be
sellers, but instead buyers.  The first two games of the Milwalkee series may be the most damaging two game winning streak ever.  There goes my dream of Tomko, Eyre and Alfonzo for a laundry list of Baseball America's all-stars.
Foppert was an unreasonable favorite of mine.  Very sad to see him go.

by BleacherEd on Jul 31, 2005 12:47 AM PDT reply actions  

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
HOLY LIVING JESUS FUCK I HATE THIS TEAM

Christ on crutches I'm pissed. This is an insanely bad move.

Holy crap.

Couldn't I be a Devil Rays fan or something that doesn't hurt?

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

:(

:(

:(

by antinous on Jul 31, 2005 1:53 AM PDT reply actions  

Sabean's ego...
...won't be satisfied unless he moving pieces around the chessboard.

If this move means Grissom is off the roster and Sanchez won't return (I'm assuming the 2nd part will come to pass, at least), then it makes the Giants ever so slightly better. But it's still stupid.

If this move means Ellison is sent down, Grissom kept, and Winn installed in LF, then Sabean's idiocy and tunnel-vision is revealed in all it's glory.

No youth unless there is no choice.

If he decides a guy won't start for him, then that's it. Torreabla, Ellison -- Sabean made a decision against them early in the decision-making process, and he will stick with it. Not a bad idea, necessarily, but he keeps replacing them with players who make 10 times as much and really aren't any better.

I'd be the best at everything, if only there weren't so many people better than me. Or, if everyone died, just for a few seconds.

by Daniel on Jul 31, 2005 2:12 AM PDT reply actions  

Well...
a month or so ago I wondered on this site why the Giants brass left Yorvit in this backup catcher purgatory for the past few years. Fish or Cut Bait was the gist of my argument. And now they have cut bait -- good for Yorvit, who gets to start regularly, for better or for worse. At the same time, they have thrown Jesse Foppert into the river as well (sent down the river is more like it), even though he was supposed to be frozen and used as sustenance in future seasons (if you follow my strained analogy).

All for a guy with the last name of "Winn," a moniker my fellow McC posters are sure to mention ironically, and in quotes, in the future.

by Kitspool on Jul 31, 2005 2:18 AM PDT reply actions  

The worst part
The first 3 people I explained this deal to thought the Giants had become sellers at the deadline.  I had to explain, no, this means we are "buyers", we are just buying the same thing..."oh my god, it's not that bad is it?"

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 2:22 AM PDT reply actions  

STOP GOING TO BED!!!!!!!!!!
As soon as I posted everyone stopped.

That's probably standard procedure, huh?  What?  Is 2:30 too late to stop talking about the newest reason to not be a Giant's fan?  It's just me, isn't it?  Damn!

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 2:34 AM PDT reply actions  

i'm still up
Brain is beginning to fry the way it does around 3 am. I personally don't know what to make of this trade, except the suspicion that Sabean just CAN'T be doing this as part of a desperate run for '05. He just can't, can he? He must have some other moves planned that will begin to reveal a bigger, sensible picture.

I thought baseball fans on both sides hated any trade. How come fans of the other teams involved in a Giants trade are laughing and pointing fingers at us...

by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I still don't quit understand
where Winn plays the rest of 2005.  Is he replacing Ellison?  Or is he really playing LF and one of Feliz/Alfonzo is traded before 1:00?  My guess is the former, but I'm hoping for the latter just so we might get something back at the deadline.  

And if we're never going to play Linden (just like we were never going to play Torrealba) then at least trade him.  Let's get somebody we might put on the field that can help us, right? RIGHT?!?!

(Preferably a pitcher.)

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, me neither
It's a mess. Reports are saying he'll be in center, which is awful b/c if they send down Ellison, I don't know how he'll ever make it back. Unless he moves to right, which doesn't make much sense either. Putting Winn in left with Ellison in center is better for the outfield defense, although it does leave us lacking in power (not that it's all that great now) but then there is as you say the Feliz/Alfonzo problem.

So I've just done a great job repeating your post. Maybe time to go to bed.

by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hate the trade but the Giants do improve
I hate losing Foppert and have to assume Sabean thinks he won't get his velocity back.  Yorvit's hitting is overrated by most supporters and only got worse this year.

But the Giants do improve.  Winn has been slotted for CF according to a quote from Felipe, meaning Ellison has lost his CF job.  He was hitting only .632 OPS vs. RHP whereas Winn has a career.746 OPS.  And Winn has also been adequate vs. LHP as well, hitting .767 OPS for his career.  Plus he has some speed and defense.

Not enough to make me happy over losing Foppert but Winn does improve the Giants against RHP.  However, not enough to help the team win the division without help in the starting rotation.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree
With the assessment that Winn is better than Ellison, but not very much, and this really doesn't help us win the division this year, unless we get really, really lucky.

So this means we have another trade ready.

Correct?

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Winn is significantly better than Ellison
but not significantly enough to make us the prohibitive favorite.

According to the SJ Merc, Sabean said that there was no deal for a pitcher likely, so Cain would be our best bet for an addition.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's the point, Martin...
The only way that this could help is if Winn platooned with Ellison -- because Elly runs a .900 OPS against left-handed pitching, while Winn's OPS is replacement-level (just like the rest of his game).

Winn does not improve this team, he just prevents it from getting worse -- at least for a litte while. Winn's numbers have fallen each of the last three seasons.

I'd be the best at everything, if only there weren't so many people better than me. Or, if everyone died, just for a few seconds.

by Daniel on Jul 31, 2005 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Martin, are you...
...actually Brian Sabean?  You had a post on your web site not long ago talking about how young players are unproven commodities blah blah blah.  I totally disagreed with you then--let's see Teixeira, ARod at 19 in Seattle, AJones at 19 with the Braves, hell pick me a team and I'll rattle off its young players worth a damn--and I totally disagree with you on Winn.  Now, I'm prepared to give him a chance and I certainly HOPE that he does well, but he's 31 and (as someone noted) he and Hawkins have just taken up Woody's salary dump.  Why is signing Winn an example of this franchise improving itself beyond next season?  And, isn't that a problem to you?  Wouldn't you rather see the franchise being viable for years to come rather than be a mish-mash of mercenaries for a year here and there?
 

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 31, 2005 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

where in the draft were those players...
taken? We have not had a position prospect of that caliber pretty much ever
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Winn
will do for the Giants what Payton has done for the A's(.909 OPS). Now all we have to do is get a pitching staff to match.  But I'm sure Sabean is working on that as we speak.  Maybe he'll trade Cain, Valdez, Simon, Misch, Griffin(nice Sk debut), insert any remaining pitching prospects here, for Millwood and Wickman.

by bigfly71 on Jul 31, 2005 3:24 AM PDT reply actions  

My secret confession
I put $91 on the A's to win the AL West before the season started when I saw 11-1 odds.  Combine this and hoping that the Giants won't "buy" this year and I've really been rooting more for the A's the last month.

I'm ashamed.

And I've never rooted for the A's.

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

ah well
I'm an A's fan, sort of. They're really in the middle of something remarkable, but I don't know if it'll last. I've seen Baltimore and Washington both coming down to earth after hot streaks, though the A's hot streak has lasted a lot longer.

Perhaps SF and Oakland should swap their B. Lamar B.'s. If folks are really interested in rebuilding. Whether it's in the Giants' long-term interest or not, however, I want them to hold things together for one more shot next year.

by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely
We should go for one more shot next year.

It might be Barry Bonds last year!!  I am completely willing to give up a couple years worth of players for a shot next year.  I mean, it's Barry Bonds, if we don't win it with him then we just wasted one of the greatest advantages a team can get.

(Personal note: Bonds is the second player to be my "favorite player."  Will Clark was my first "favorite player" and will always be first on my list.  This means that Bonds has been my favorite player for about a decade.)

by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wish I could be an A's fan
but I just don't care about them.

It's infuriating to be a Giants fan, post-02, watching Sabean make one inane move after another.  

Anyway, I notice that this is a "mortgage the future, win at any cost" year for the Giants, and Sabes has been getting rid of any and all building blocks that we have on hand for 07 or beyond, and we have the 5th worst record in the MLs.  Meanwhile, the A's are "rebuilding for the future" this year, and are on a 41-10 tear, and will very likely take a competive team into the playoffs.

Why?  We all know the answer - because Billy Bean understands what factors really have a team win basebally games, while Brian Sabean does not.  It's funny, over at http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/, they comment on posts that Steve Phillips makes on ESPN, and its clear that being a major league GM doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.  At all.  

And they also talk about how so many irrational old-school "baseball insiders" ignore numbers and theories, except that they have a few basic/stupid ones that they hold on dearly to.  I've noticed, for example that Sabean and Alou seem to be really all up in right/lefty matchups and balance shit.  Like, Alou changing pitchers four times in an inning, looking for the best matchup.  Or Sabean getting rid of Russ Ortiz, a pitcher with his uses, in favor of trading for Damien Moss and giving a big contract to Woody, two pitchers below replacement level, to ensure that he would have two lefties in the rotation rather than all righties.  I mean, if that's your level of strategizing and getting clever, you really shouldn't be a big league GM, ya know?

by SnowLeopard on Jul 31, 2005 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Steve Phillips is a stupid fool and
I really can't believe that he ever made it to be a GM.  Tonight I caught him talking about how GMs "aren't stupid" and would never give up top prospects for mediocre talent...and would never be taken.  Ahh, Steve, have you looked at the moves that YOU made?
Fool

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 31, 2005 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wondering
  What if barry had been playing the whole year and putting up expected barry numbers yet the giants still had the same record.  I realize barry would almost certainly have made at least a 5 or 6 game difference, but he still would have little effect on the pitching staff aside from maybe letting them pitch with a lead more often.  But say he had played and we were 51-53 and tied with the Padres.  That would be the ninth best record in the nl, and 6 games behind the 3rd best current playoff team.  Would people still be clamoring for us to be sellers, or would they welcome the two trades we've made for costly veterans Hawkins and Winn?  
  As much as I hate trading youth, I've always liked teams like the twins and a's philosophy much more than the Giants, I've also been of the opinion that as long as Bonds is with us we should do everything we can to try and win now.  Can anyone really say that we would have made as many post-season appearences with the guys we traded for: Jeff Kent, Jason Schmidt, Robb Nen, Kenny Lofton, Andres Galarraga, Ellis Burks, Joe Carter, Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Jose Mesa, J.T. Snow, Livan Hernandez.  We've made the playoffs 4 times in 12 years with bonds, that's only 33% but w/o those trades it might have been 0%.  
  I guess you can look back and say we just should have made a bigger commitment to the scouting department and player development, but when you acquire a player like Bonds and have decent payroll flexibility, I think it would be hard to say let's surround him with as many top quality cheap young guys as possible instead of let's get good quality veteran players, and make a run every year.  And we did make the World Series and damn well should have won the thing.  
  Now we don't know what Aardsma, and Foppert are going to do, but it's almost certain they won't be huge factors next year which is most likely bonds last year.  And Williams is a good quality 4th starter but that is most likely his ceiling.  I think you have to look at these moves from next years prospective, even if they help us make a miracle run to division title this year I can't see us making any kind of a splash in the playoffs, although if barry makes it back in time I would certainly have a lot more faith.  
  But looking to next year it gives us an OF of Bonds, Winn, Alou.  And it gives us a 1-2 punch of HawkinsBenitez.  If Sabes can swing one of these guys: Burnett,Millwood,Washburn,Morris, and Cain is ready that gives us a good starting 4.  Granted that's a lot of ifs (Bonds, and Benitez must perform as expected), and one of those pitchers and Cain, but I think there is always ifs when it comes to every mlb team.  
  I just know it's been a blast having barry on our team for 12 years, and who knows maybe w/o him and a focus on youth we might have been a better team over the years, but I can't look back and say "man I wish we hadn't signed barry" with a clear conscious.  I say let's make one more run at next year, and hell if barry comes back for '07 let's make it two.  I think he's worth it.

by bigfly71 on Jul 31, 2005 4:51 AM PDT reply actions  

Nice post
I agree mainly with your post.

However, I strongly disagree about Williams.  Williams had #1-2 all over him going up the minor league food chain and in his first stint in the majors had a mid-3 ERA, that is not the characteristic of a #4 pitcher.

And the Giants farm system is slowly recovering from the horrible first half of the 90's when it was pretty shabby, look at the #1 picks in that era compared to Sabean's once he got his full team in place, which I'm assuming started with the 1999 draft and the success he had with that one relative to the ones before.

Also, there is no way the Giants can afford a Burnett, Millwood, Washburn, or Morris with all the players they have added and will keep for next year.  I expect to get the "next" Brett Tomko, whoever he may be in this free agent market.  

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

might we go with the internal option and
a rotation of Schmidt, lowry, Hennessey, Correia and Cain?    Meh, hardly a playoff rotation.
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

However,
I cannot imagine that cheaply available talent will be better.
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

thanks Martin
but I stand firm on Williams if he ever becomes a #1-2, I will personally send you an apology and declare you the smartest person ever.  

As far as signing a good quality FA pitcher, I realize it's probably out of reach, seeing as though most of our current players have bigger salaries in 06 than 05, and we also have to replace the guys we lose(tucker, grissom, snow, eyre, J.C., rueter, and tomko).  But I have to think Sabean realizes he has to improve the rotation significantly, or all these moves make no sense.  He can't think a rotation of Schmidt, Lowry, Cain, Hennessey, and Valdez, is going to carry us to the deep playoffs.  If he does I'm for sure jumping on the Sabes is a douchebag bandwagon.

by bigfly71 on Jul 31, 2005 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nick, you rule
I just posted my essay on the trade(I hope someone takes the time to read it), and then looked up to read your post, and I was like holy shit I like this guy.  And then I read your personal note and I was like holy shit this guy rules, because Will Clark has and always will be my favorite Giant, and Barry has and always will be my second favorite Giant.

by bigfly71 on Jul 31, 2005 4:56 AM PDT reply actions  

2006
Early on Sabes said his big mistake was to overrate his starting pitching and not bring in more of it.  Yet his only to trades this year have gotten rid of potential starters.  He's also added $8-9 million of salary on two negligible contributors, which will make it more difficult to sign impact starters on the free agent market this winter (not that there's much impact out there).  There was no money for Vlad, there'll be no money for Burnett because we're too busy paying 5mil for a Randy Winn and 4 for LaTroy Hawkins. The scariest thing about Benitez isn't just the injury, it's that he had already suffered more failure for us in a month then he did all last year for the fish.

by Roger on Jul 31, 2005 10:27 AM PDT reply actions  

do you really
want the Giants to get into a bidding war with the Red Sox and Yankees for an merely above average pitcher with a wanky arm?
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

No I don't
I just used Burnettc vailable.  My bigger point is that in throwing away potential pitchers who's contracts you control, you're forced to go out on the market and overpay (hello Eric Milton or whatever unbelievable contract Kevin Millwood's in line for).  Trying to fill the staff on the cheap with people who are released or who nobody else wants is a fantastic way to create a 70 win team.  Under what scenario can you envision a starting rotation next year that's any better than what we have today.  Tomko's gonna be gone.  Reuter, too (thank god). Where are they gonna dredge up 5 starters now that aren't the core of terrible team?

Off the subject, I got a great laugh out of Rich Draper's article the other day that said Brett Tomko was a valued commodity at trade timeause people really want pitcher's who have that post-season experience.  Off the top of my head, the only time I can think Tomko ever got into a post-season game would have been in the short-lived 2000 Mariners postseason run and I know he didn't start any of those games.  Sadly, I know Draper is often mouthing Sabean's feelings.

by Roger on Jul 31, 2005 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well.....currently......
Winn isn't even on the Active Roster on the Giants' site.  The Mariners were in Cleveland, so I don't see a big problem in him getting to Miluakee today.  And still no one has been sent down or released.....
Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Jul 31, 2005 10:56 AM PDT reply actions  

no
but in today's day and age don't underestimate above average pitcher with a wanky arm.  Look at starting pitching around the league and you know why the pads trade nevin for chan ho, and teams give big $$$ to these same pitchers.  Hell if we didn't need Tomko for the rest of the year cause we're "only" 5.5 out than we should be able to get a good quality mL or very good quality miL.

by bigfly71 on Jul 31, 2005 11:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Stupid.
Just a stupid trade.

Winn isn't going to maintain his already mediocre level of production for much longer. Winn will be another overpriced and undertalented weight on the roster, preventing the development of younger players.

Folks here in Seattle were ready to see Winn go - he isn't offering much to help the moribund M's now, and they're expressing joy over getting two younger, potentially useful players from us.

I guess my main objection is philosophical. By trading for Winn, Sabean shows that he is still not interested in long-term talent development. Winn won't help us much beyond 2006, Foppert and Yorvit might well have done so. Given the uncertainties, I'd rather we looked to the future instead of hobbling ourselves in the present.

Some folks prefer a "win now" strategy. But what would we win? Is it really worth mortgaging the future to win the pathetic NL West and go 3-and-out in the NLDS? I don't know about the rest of you, but having already written off much of this season, I'm happier spending a few years rebuilding than watching us get our asses kicked in early October.

by eugene on Jul 31, 2005 11:03 AM PDT reply actions  

I think this move
was made principally with 2006 in mind
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Really?
Well, if that's the case, then Winn's OPS ought to be even worse then, as it's fallen every year since his career highs in 2002. Following this pattern, he ought to be around a .720 OPS or so next season...which is about what Ellison runs right about now.

But they'll be paying Winn over 3 million more dollars for it. Yeah. Real smart.

I'd be the best at everything, if only there weren't so many people better than me. Or, if everyone died, just for a few seconds.

by Daniel on Jul 31, 2005 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do You Really Believe 2006 will be better?
Seems likely to be same crap punctuated by the occasional Bonds solo HR to me.  The roster's got enough built in unloadable contracts that adding much of significance will be nearly impossible.

by Roger on Jul 31, 2005 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cop out
If Bonds comes back a semblance of his former self, we will have one of the best offenses in baseball.  The Giants record will depend on how Sabean addresses the pitching in the off-season.  I do not envy his job.
DYG!

by kenshin1 on Jul 31, 2005 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well.....
Perhaps we can trade Snow, Alfonzo, or Feliz for pitching next offseason.
Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Jul 31, 2005 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

How?
Snow is a free agent after the season and Fonzie's contract has proved untradeable for 2 years now.  Who in their right mind would pay $8 million for this guy?  Feliz possibly, but then you take even more  power out of a power-deprived lineup and are forced to go with Niekro full time at 1st.

by Roger on Aug 1, 2005 4:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

An idea of roster move.......
To make room for Winn, perhaps Alou will be going on the DL.  Surely Felipe knows that we're out of it.  Maybe Felipe can go on the DL too.  Disabled Mind.  Throw Sabean on there too if you'd like.
Man: What they need is a front office. Jerry: But you gotta like their chances. .....Not so much this year.....

by WalrusMan on Jul 31, 2005 11:22 AM PDT reply actions  

They are not playing to win
nor are they playing to test youngsters.  

I'm now convinced that they're playing to stay close enough to the Padres so that at the end of Aug. mgmt. can send out playoff strip bills to the season ticketholders.  They actually think that if we're 4 games back with a losing record I'll drop a couple grand on playoff tickets on the offhand chance I want to see us destroyed by the Cards.  That way, my Feb. 2 payment looks small cause I got all the left over cash from the playoffs sitting in my account and I don't realize until July '06 how much I paid to see Randy Winn in center.

Pete, the only way that happens is if we go 21 and 7 in Aug., lead by 4 or more AND sweep the Braves, Cards, Mets and Astros.

by crionna on Jul 31, 2005 6:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Why?
Word.  This trade falls into the "why?" category for me.  The only explanation I can come up with is similar to what crionna suggests: they made a move just to make a move...to con fans by not standing pat.

They already have a Jason Ellison and Michael Tucker.  Why get another, and pay a bunch of $ for him?  (I think Ellison makes $500k, while Winn will be owed a minimum of $3.5M next year.)  Daniel put it very well:  "he keeps replacing them with players who make 10 times as much and really aren't any better."  So much for freeing up salary to pursue rotation help for next year.

Alex Sanchez.  LaTroy Hawkins.  Randy Winn.  All are the type of players who could be replaced by most teams' minor-leaguers.  Too bad the Giants don't have any minor-league position players worth a damn.

by Cleophus on Aug 3, 2005 4:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Never mind
I just read Grant's 8/1 post, and it basically says a lot of what I just wrote, except better.  Never mind....

by Cleophus on Aug 3, 2005 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

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