Weighing In
The trade to get Randy Winn encapsulates everything wrong with how the Giants are constructed. It represents a failure of imagination, and a squandering of resources. And it's a good trade for the Giants as they are presently constructed.
The first step in embracing this trade is to believe Jesse Foppert was never going to be more than roster filler for the Giants. The Jerome Williams trade was the equivalent of sending your kid to military school for taking a sip of boxed wine at the family Christmas party. Williams had been, at the very least, an above-average pitcher at each level he pitched, and usually much younger than his competition.
Foppert was the pitcher who was to unsheathe the sword in the stone; the hometown kid who was going to ape Tom Seaver's career. The scouting reports became myth, as Baseball America might as well have had a FoppWatch meter on its homepage. An easy 99-mph. Picture perfect mechanics. Hard, biting slider. He struck out 28 batters for every nine innings he pitched, and was poised to be one of the greatest......
And then you can hear the record player screech to a stop. There was the Tommy John surgery, of course, but of more concern was the velocity that happened in Fresno, and stayed in Fresno. He left the Giants with a sneaky-fast 89-mph fastball, and nothing resembling a second pitch or good control. If Foppert has success as a major-league pitcher, it will be down the line. There is to be no immediate, pre-arbitration success with Foppert. Whatever success he might find will come in the Jose Lima/Jaime Moyer mold, miles away from his original organization. His departure is a touch sad, but Randy Winn is a solid player. If it takes the ethereal promise of Jesse Foppert to get a fair complement to Jason Ellison, then you at least hope the parting gifts are nice.
The more disturbing part of the deal is the toss-in of Yorvit Torrealba. Not that Torrealba was some great flea market find for the Mariners. He is what he is, which is a great backup and harmless starter. What makes it disturbing is the renewal of vows between the Giants and Mike Matheny. The Giants have problems. The problems are almost exclusively pitching related, and they will likely need to devote serious capital to address them. Having a player like Torrealba, who is a superb defender and acceptable hitter, would have allowed the Giants to fill a starting position cheaply, and allowed them to spend a touch more money for a pitcher. Brian Sabean's wish-list for his starting catcher obviously begins and ends at defense, with offense a negligible concern. Perfect. Try and foist the $6M or so left on Matheny's contract on whomever might be interested in the offseason.
That was never to be. The front office is still attached to the idea that Matheny is the blue blanket to the pitching staff's inner Linus. As if the Giants collective ERA would be 6.00 without the mystical pitcher-tamer with the curly locks. And if Matheny is, and always was, the Giants guy, then Yorvit was good for little more than a warm feeling of security in the tummy. Having Foppert and Yorvit off the team, and Winn on, makes the Giants a better team. Nothing earth-shattering, mind you. With the trade, the Giants moved from 73-win team to 74-win team, and somewhere Ricky Watters is muttering, "For what? For whom?" It isn't often that a trade can help your favorite team, and still leave you discouraged.
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Thing is....
Maybe some team will be looking....
Well, whoever gets sent down,
Remember Joe Nathan
This trade is the height of stupidity.
I do not believe I have sufficient whiskey in my house to prevent me from being pissed off until 4 a.m.
This will end up being worse than the Wayne Franklin trade
at the time
Any Level?
my point about nathan
Foppert may still get back to 95+
Even if he doesn't, he still may be effective at 88-90, if he adds command.
less major?
FWIW, I was a big advocate of getting Winn a couple years ago. Now I agree with those who say the moves does not make sense for a team destined to finish 3rd or 4th in the division this year.
As for Torrealba, I think most Giants fans overrate him. His weaknesses as a hitter are less exposed when a manager can pick the games when he does and does not start. Given the past reports about how much Torrealba had wanted to be traded, I think the Giants did him a favor, and it's hard to fault them for that.
That's my two cents.
the shoulder
It's not that Winn won't help the team a little, it's that he doesn't address their problems in a meaningful way.
Yorvit is no all-star, but I still think there would be no significant difference between he and Matheny of the course of the year.
my point about nathan
Foppert may still get back to 95+
Even if he doesn't, he still may be effective at 88-90, if he adds command.
this is the reason
first it was jerome williams and aardsma for a journeyman reliver.
now it's foppert for a journeyman outfielder. sure winn probably is better than anything we have out there right now. but the giants have to realize something. THIS TEAM IS GOING NOWHERE!!!!!!!! There is absolutely NO EXCUSE in the world to trade one of our young commodities just so we can win a few more games now. You have to remember, Foppert is one year removed from having major arm surgery! He healed extremely fast but it takes about 2 years to fully recover from tommy john. It was damn near a miracle that he even was able to pitch this year. GIVE HIM SOME TIME! He's 24 years old for christ sake! What the fuck are we gonna do with a 31 year old career .280 hitter?!? Is he the final piece to our sad jigsaw puzzle? I don't think so...
Yet we felt it was necessary to give up yet another one of our young pitchers just so we can say we made a move at the deadline.
It's fucking pathetic.
Guys, it's okay
Watching management's self-immolation is almost fun. I'm gonna make a drinking game of it, just as soon as my head clears from the unmitigated stupidity.
Two shots for every Win Share Nathan/Foppert/Williams/Aardsma contribute to their teams in the coming years!
More Shots
> Nathan/Foppert/Williams/Aardsma
> contribute to their teams in the
> coming years!
Not to mention Bonser, Liriano, Torrealba, Brower, or Hermanson, or the contributions made in the past few years by Ortiz, Sanders, Lofton, Mueller, and Witasick, since they left the Giants.
So I guess this trade means the Giants will not be
Foppert was an unreasonable favorite of mine. Very sad to see him go.
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
Christ on crutches I'm pissed. This is an insanely bad move.
Holy crap.
Couldn't I be a Devil Rays fan or something that doesn't hurt?
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
:(
:(
:(
Sabean's ego...
If this move means Grissom is off the roster and Sanchez won't return (I'm assuming the 2nd part will come to pass, at least), then it makes the Giants ever so slightly better. But it's still stupid.
If this move means Ellison is sent down, Grissom kept, and Winn installed in LF, then Sabean's idiocy and tunnel-vision is revealed in all it's glory.
No youth unless there is no choice.
If he decides a guy won't start for him, then that's it. Torreabla, Ellison -- Sabean made a decision against them early in the decision-making process, and he will stick with it. Not a bad idea, necessarily, but he keeps replacing them with players who make 10 times as much and really aren't any better.
Well...
All for a guy with the last name of "Winn," a moniker my fellow McC posters are sure to mention ironically, and in quotes, in the future.
The worst part
STOP GOING TO BED!!!!!!!!!!
That's probably standard procedure, huh? What? Is 2:30 too late to stop talking about the newest reason to not be a Giant's fan? It's just me, isn't it? Damn!
i'm still up
I thought baseball fans on both sides hated any trade. How come fans of the other teams involved in a Giants trade are laughing and pointing fingers at us...
by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I still don't quit understand
And if we're never going to play Linden (just like we were never going to play Torrealba) then at least trade him. Let's get somebody we might put on the field that can help us, right? RIGHT?!?!
(Preferably a pitcher.)
by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, me neither
So I've just done a great job repeating your post. Maybe time to go to bed.
by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I hate the trade but the Giants do improve
But the Giants do improve. Winn has been slotted for CF according to a quote from Felipe, meaning Ellison has lost his CF job. He was hitting only .632 OPS vs. RHP whereas Winn has a career.746 OPS. And Winn has also been adequate vs. LHP as well, hitting .767 OPS for his career. Plus he has some speed and defense.
Not enough to make me happy over losing Foppert but Winn does improve the Giants against RHP. However, not enough to help the team win the division without help in the starting rotation.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
So this means we have another trade ready.
Correct?
by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Winn is significantly better than Ellison
According to the SJ Merc, Sabean said that there was no deal for a pitcher likely, so Cain would be our best bet for an addition.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
That's the point, Martin...
Winn does not improve this team, he just prevents it from getting worse -- at least for a litte while. Winn's numbers have fallen each of the last three seasons.
Martin, are you...
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 31, 2005 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
where in the draft were those players...
Maybe Winn
My secret confession
I'm ashamed.
And I've never rooted for the A's.
by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions
ah well
Perhaps SF and Oakland should swap their B. Lamar B.'s. If folks are really interested in rebuilding. Whether it's in the Giants' long-term interest or not, however, I want them to hold things together for one more shot next year.
by non sequitur on Jul 31, 2005 3:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Definitely
It might be Barry Bonds last year!! I am completely willing to give up a couple years worth of players for a shot next year. I mean, it's Barry Bonds, if we don't win it with him then we just wasted one of the greatest advantages a team can get.
(Personal note: Bonds is the second player to be my "favorite player." Will Clark was my first "favorite player" and will always be first on my list. This means that Bonds has been my favorite player for about a decade.)
by Nick Schulte on Jul 31, 2005 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish I could be an A's fan
It's infuriating to be a Giants fan, post-02, watching Sabean make one inane move after another.
Anyway, I notice that this is a "mortgage the future, win at any cost" year for the Giants, and Sabes has been getting rid of any and all building blocks that we have on hand for 07 or beyond, and we have the 5th worst record in the MLs. Meanwhile, the A's are "rebuilding for the future" this year, and are on a 41-10 tear, and will very likely take a competive team into the playoffs.
Why? We all know the answer - because Billy Bean understands what factors really have a team win basebally games, while Brian Sabean does not. It's funny, over at http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/, they comment on posts that Steve Phillips makes on ESPN, and its clear that being a major league GM doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. At all.
And they also talk about how so many irrational old-school "baseball insiders" ignore numbers and theories, except that they have a few basic/stupid ones that they hold on dearly to. I've noticed, for example that Sabean and Alou seem to be really all up in right/lefty matchups and balance shit. Like, Alou changing pitchers four times in an inning, looking for the best matchup. Or Sabean getting rid of Russ Ortiz, a pitcher with his uses, in favor of trading for Damien Moss and giving a big contract to Woody, two pitchers below replacement level, to ensure that he would have two lefties in the rotation rather than all righties. I mean, if that's your level of strategizing and getting clever, you really shouldn't be a big league GM, ya know?
Steve Phillips is a stupid fool and
Fool
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 31, 2005 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Wondering
As much as I hate trading youth, I've always liked teams like the twins and a's philosophy much more than the Giants, I've also been of the opinion that as long as Bonds is with us we should do everything we can to try and win now. Can anyone really say that we would have made as many post-season appearences with the guys we traded for: Jeff Kent, Jason Schmidt, Robb Nen, Kenny Lofton, Andres Galarraga, Ellis Burks, Joe Carter, Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Jose Mesa, J.T. Snow, Livan Hernandez. We've made the playoffs 4 times in 12 years with bonds, that's only 33% but w/o those trades it might have been 0%.
I guess you can look back and say we just should have made a bigger commitment to the scouting department and player development, but when you acquire a player like Bonds and have decent payroll flexibility, I think it would be hard to say let's surround him with as many top quality cheap young guys as possible instead of let's get good quality veteran players, and make a run every year. And we did make the World Series and damn well should have won the thing.
Now we don't know what Aardsma, and Foppert are going to do, but it's almost certain they won't be huge factors next year which is most likely bonds last year. And Williams is a good quality 4th starter but that is most likely his ceiling. I think you have to look at these moves from next years prospective, even if they help us make a miracle run to division title this year I can't see us making any kind of a splash in the playoffs, although if barry makes it back in time I would certainly have a lot more faith.
But looking to next year it gives us an OF of Bonds, Winn, Alou. And it gives us a 1-2 punch of HawkinsBenitez. If Sabes can swing one of these guys: Burnett,Millwood,Washburn,Morris, and Cain is ready that gives us a good starting 4. Granted that's a lot of ifs (Bonds, and Benitez must perform as expected), and one of those pitchers and Cain, but I think there is always ifs when it comes to every mlb team.
I just know it's been a blast having barry on our team for 12 years, and who knows maybe w/o him and a focus on youth we might have been a better team over the years, but I can't look back and say "man I wish we hadn't signed barry" with a clear conscious. I say let's make one more run at next year, and hell if barry comes back for '07 let's make it two. I think he's worth it.
Nice post
However, I strongly disagree about Williams. Williams had #1-2 all over him going up the minor league food chain and in his first stint in the majors had a mid-3 ERA, that is not the characteristic of a #4 pitcher.
And the Giants farm system is slowly recovering from the horrible first half of the 90's when it was pretty shabby, look at the #1 picks in that era compared to Sabean's once he got his full team in place, which I'm assuming started with the 1999 draft and the success he had with that one relative to the ones before.
Also, there is no way the Giants can afford a Burnett, Millwood, Washburn, or Morris with all the players they have added and will keep for next year. I expect to get the "next" Brett Tomko, whoever he may be in this free agent market.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Jul 31, 2005 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
might we go with the internal option and
thanks Martin
As far as signing a good quality FA pitcher, I realize it's probably out of reach, seeing as though most of our current players have bigger salaries in 06 than 05, and we also have to replace the guys we lose(tucker, grissom, snow, eyre, J.C., rueter, and tomko). But I have to think Sabean realizes he has to improve the rotation significantly, or all these moves make no sense. He can't think a rotation of Schmidt, Lowry, Cain, Hennessey, and Valdez, is going to carry us to the deep playoffs. If he does I'm for sure jumping on the Sabes is a douchebag bandwagon.
Nick, you rule
2006
do you really
No I don't
Off the subject, I got a great laugh out of Rich Draper's article the other day that said Brett Tomko was a valued commodity at trade timeause people really want pitcher's who have that post-season experience. Off the top of my head, the only time I can think Tomko ever got into a post-season game would have been in the short-lived 2000 Mariners postseason run and I know he didn't start any of those games. Sadly, I know Draper is often mouthing Sabean's feelings.
Well.....currently......
no
Stupid.
Winn isn't going to maintain his already mediocre level of production for much longer. Winn will be another overpriced and undertalented weight on the roster, preventing the development of younger players.
Folks here in Seattle were ready to see Winn go - he isn't offering much to help the moribund M's now, and they're expressing joy over getting two younger, potentially useful players from us.
I guess my main objection is philosophical. By trading for Winn, Sabean shows that he is still not interested in long-term talent development. Winn won't help us much beyond 2006, Foppert and Yorvit might well have done so. Given the uncertainties, I'd rather we looked to the future instead of hobbling ourselves in the present.
Some folks prefer a "win now" strategy. But what would we win? Is it really worth mortgaging the future to win the pathetic NL West and go 3-and-out in the NLDS? I don't know about the rest of you, but having already written off much of this season, I'm happier spending a few years rebuilding than watching us get our asses kicked in early October.
Really?
But they'll be paying Winn over 3 million more dollars for it. Yeah. Real smart.
Do You Really Believe 2006 will be better?
Cop out
Well.....
How?
An idea of roster move.......
They are not playing to win
I'm now convinced that they're playing to stay close enough to the Padres so that at the end of Aug. mgmt. can send out playoff strip bills to the season ticketholders. They actually think that if we're 4 games back with a losing record I'll drop a couple grand on playoff tickets on the offhand chance I want to see us destroyed by the Cards. That way, my Feb. 2 payment looks small cause I got all the left over cash from the playoffs sitting in my account and I don't realize until July '06 how much I paid to see Randy Winn in center.
Pete, the only way that happens is if we go 21 and 7 in Aug., lead by 4 or more AND sweep the Braves, Cards, Mets and Astros.
by crionna on Jul 31, 2005 6:46 PM PDT reply actions
Why?
They already have a Jason Ellison and Michael Tucker. Why get another, and pay a bunch of $ for him? (I think Ellison makes $500k, while Winn will be owed a minimum of $3.5M next year.) Daniel put it very well: "he keeps replacing them with players who make 10 times as much and really aren't any better." So much for freeing up salary to pursue rotation help for next year.
Alex Sanchez. LaTroy Hawkins. Randy Winn. All are the type of players who could be replaced by most teams' minor-leaguers. Too bad the Giants don't have any minor-league position players worth a damn.

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