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Five

There is hardly anything more arbitrary than the one-through-five slotting of starting pitchers. Teams talk about getting "a fourth starter" or "a number two", when they should really just be concerned with getting a good pitcher. The Giants have something like three number twos, a five, and a six, but they're looking to bump the five to a four and bring in a number five to replace the six, hoping that one or two of the twos becomes a one. Unless, of course, the five can stay a five, and the team could somehow find a four to squeeze the six out, or all three twos become ones which leaves a whole lot of nothing from two to four, or all three twos pitch like threes and fours, which would be a nightmare.

The arbitrary designations didn't come out of thin air, and the above is much too flip. There are good reasons for the slotting, and it really doesn't have much to do with how a rotation is set up. If a team lets the press know they're looking for a number one starter, it can be safely assumed they're looking for one of the top 20 pitchers in the game. If the same team is looking for a number two starter, that implies certain qualities as well. They'd love a staff filled with five of the best pitchers in baseball, but that's not realistic. So a number two starter implies the next step down, the best pitcher available within a set of budget or trade limitations. The numeric designation for a starting pitcher is little more than a rough assessment of that pitcher's ability and expectations. In that sense, it is a very convenient shorthand method of describing a pitcher.

Different people will have different definitions for the rankings. One person's number two is another's third starter. Brett Tomko might be acceptable to some as the fourth best pitcher in a rotation, others would cringe if he were anything but a fifth starter. But almost all of us have unconsciously formed our own set of definitions. The Giants are looking for a starter to complete the rotation; not necessarily a fifth starter, but close enough.

The idea of what constitutes a final rotation piece is probably the one which is least agreed upon. If the bile in my stomach were a publicly traded company, all this talk about Shawn Estes would have sent its stock through the roof.  So, without further ado, my qualifications for the last man in a rotation:

  1. A chance at mediocrity. Brett Tomko, for all of his perceived faults, has a nice chance every year to post an ERA right around the league average. A rookie pitcher who had some sort of success in the minors has an excellent chance to be shelled in a large portion of his outings. He also brings the possibility he will quickly adjust, and be a league-average pitcher right away. It might not be likely, but having a realistic chance is all this magical spot is about.
  2. A reason to have the teeniest of tiny hopes for more than mediocrity. A pitcher like Tomko would have the blazing fastball. A rookie might have great stuff, zero control, and the hope would relate to his command clicking into place. Pitchers like Al Leiter or Kevin Brown have a past history of dominance, and a current history of leaving the bathroom without burning a match. Maybe, just maybe, they can squeeze another good season out. The veterans are more for a team looking for a short-term fix, and the rookies are more about developing for the future, but both of the examples could conceivably help a contender immediately.
Just how hard you're willing to squint to find that sliver of hope makes all the difference. Matt Kinney might have the proper hope toll to cross that fifth starter's bridge for you, or maybe you wouldn't let him into a Fresno game without a ticket. Some combination of the above two, though, seems to be the proper formula for a team that can't afford to overspend for more than one Matt Morris, or has a minor-league system lacking prospects obviously ready for more than a brief trial.

Not to dig up Seabiscuit and start pummeling him, but Shawn Estes doesn't pass that particular smell test. His erratic curveball is the only thing that even approaches average, and it's been five years since he's had a decent season. Not a good season, not a great season, but a decent season. His fastball is gone, his control might even be getting worse, and he probably hasn't put much practice time into sliding, either. Picking someone up to allow Brad Hennessey to develop in AAA or as a long reliever is a great idea. It provides the Giants with crucial depth, and I'm all for it. Just not Estes, please.

I'm sure Pedro Feliz would be able to bring back a decent candidate in a trade, should the Giants pick up Bill Mueller. There are still some candidates on the market, like Leiter or Tony Armas, Jr., as well. There are more candidates to bring in ahead of Hennessey, it seems like, than minor-league free agents to slot behind him. Giving Hennessey the job out of the box wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, either. The Giants rotation is mostly set, and arguing about the fifth starter is almost a luxury. I just hope that last spot is filled by someone worth watching, and someone with the potential to surprise.

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Re: Five
"The Giants have something like three number twos, a five, and a six, but they're looking to bump the five to a four and bring in a number five to replace the six, hoping that one or two of the twos becomes a one. Unless, of course, the five can stay a five, and the team could somehow find a four to squeeze the six out, or all three twos become ones which leaves a whole lot of nothing from two to four, or all three twos pitch like threes and fours, which would be a nightmare."

ABSOLUTELY FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!  

by orangeandblackattack on Dec 14, 2005 11:09 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
Too many numbers, have to come back and read this tomorrow so I don't have to take a math final and read that in the same day.
So who's ready to commit Sabeanocide?

by WalrusMan on Dec 14, 2005 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I'd add a witty comment of my own, but I need to leave my desk and go squeeze out a number two.
www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Dec 14, 2005 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Yahtzee!
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Dec 14, 2005 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
"And Tomorrow's pitching"

Funny stuff indeed.

Good points all around, I totally agree that we don't need more than mediocrity coming in - that's why I was against most of the available pitchers in our price range who's not represented by Borass and only Morris interested me.

I still cannot believe that Sabean was willing to stretch the budget for Loaiza but not Vlad or even Tejada...  (then again if Magowan would have let out the purse string then...)

I think (hope!) Sabean is waiting for the Dec 20th non-tenders to see if there are any worth pursuing, then, if unsuccessful, pick off any stragglers in Jan/Feb for cheap competition against Hennessey.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 11:34 AM PST reply actions  

Armas
I have always liked him. He has injury issues, but with Hennessey as the insurance policy I don't think its too bad. I can't picture him being dominant for a whole season, but he has the kind of stuff that if he got hot down the stretch he could be as good as anyone for September and into October.

by hammystyle on Dec 14, 2005 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

Tomko
So are you saying let's get Tomko back? I'm behind that except it upsets the morale of the fans, it seems.

by tk on Dec 14, 2005 12:34 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tomko
Well, he'll be available to us to sign on May 1st if no one picks him up; by then we'll know whether Hennessey got it or not and Tomko would be happy for table scrapts if he's around then.

However, given the crazy market that's been boiling over with lots of $$$, I expect Tomko to sign with one of the losers in the Loaiza's sweepstakes (kind of double entredre funny because I think the winner of the sweepstakes is a loser as well...) and make more in one year than he made in two years with the Giants (around $3.75M if I remember right; that should be enough to keep his wife away from any reunion issues of her former employer, a well-known picture - though I only read it for the articles - magazine company run by an Octogenarian and his daughter).  

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
Yes, Leiter is available.  But so what?  

-D

by dw4848 on Dec 14, 2005 12:59 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
any idea of what names are being floated around for non-tendered? and does anyone know what ever happened to wade miller? he was a pretty good one for a while, got hurt, then the red sox picked him up and i read he only went 4-4 last season.. is he still hurt? available?
Dodgers fans eat their young.

by redhornet78 on Dec 14, 2005 1:15 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
I have a hunch the Red Sox will try to work something out with Miller, but non-tendering him is not out of the question.

Other possible non-tenders (some more likely than others, some more hideous than others):
Joe Kennedy
Kip Wells
Josh Fogg
Kaz Ishii
Ramon Ortiz
Ryan Vogelsong
Ryan Franklin
Kyle Loshe
Gil Meche
Zack Day
Rob Bell
Mark Hendrickson

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Dec 14, 2005 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Mr. Acceptable
Here's my short list:

Kevin Brown
Tony Armas
Joe Kennedy
Kip Wells
Kyle Loshe
Gil Meche
Zack Day

I blame Tomko.

by The Balls of Summer on Dec 14, 2005 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Why Not Zito?
While I am dreaming.  It doesn't matter, I am sure we will end up with one of our young guys in the 5th spot.  I would rather have another bat than another arm.  You can pick up a pitcher in the last year of his deal in mid-season.  We would only have to pick up half his salary, and we would get the best part of his services.  The 3 months before he becomes a free-agent.

by rod beck on Dec 14, 2005 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I'll take any of Boras' clients, with Washburn my first choice. I know, I know, it's not going to happen because the Giants won't pay the price and they hate Boras more than most. Still they SHOULD sign Washburn, if they are serious about a run at a Series title. Sorry folks, I don't care about budgets when the World Series is on the line (oops, flashback to a great Rob Reiner flick.)

I would've been happy, or at least kept my mouth shut, if they had signed Tomko, but now we are reduced to the possibility of either going with the two-headed monster of Hennessey/Correia or sorting through the likes of Kaz Ishii and Shawn Estes. Both who I would reluctantly take over Corressey. It's looking to me like a trade to fill the position is a better bet. Other than the A's wanting to have Sandy Koufax to pry Zito loose (think Sandy would sign for trade purposes?), I don't know what's a realistic possibility out there. Time to wear out the phone lines, Brian.

by Sayhey on Dec 14, 2005 2:26 PM PST reply actions  

So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
Going out and busting the budget on someone who is only slightly above average doesn't help you win titles in fact it works in the opposite. If you look at a common denominator of recent championship teams they all had low-price risks that worked out and big contributions from unexpected sources.

White Sox - El Duque, Contreras, the whole damn bullpen
Red Sox - Ortiz, Mueller, Bellhorn and Bronson Arroyo.
Marlins - Cabrera and Beckett played like the best players in the playoffs.

So even though the Giants aren't done this offseason I don't think they are going to make any major moves, but hopefully they take some chacnes on some guys who can help. Then if they are fortunate enough to be in the playoffs they can hope that Cain's talent is enought to dominate, or that an Armas or a Leiter can make a great start, or that Linden comes off the bench to hit two huge bombs off of Lidge/Rivera/F-Rod. That may seem unlikely but that's how teams win the title, not just by blowing money around everywhere.

by hammystyle on Dec 14, 2005 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
Teams win championships with the right combination of players, regardless of what their cost is, and the most import aspect of building a team is still the five guys who take turns going out there everyday and throw the ball from the mound. When you get to the playoffs, two or three pitchers can get you through, but in the long haul of the season it takes a full staff to compete. I've said before and I'll keep hammering it, to go into a season with 40% of your games in the hands of pitchers who haven't even pitch an entire season is looking for disaster. Make no mistake, unless Cain is the second coming of Marichal, he is going to struggle. That's fine in a fifth starter with all his upsides. It isn't ok with two slots in the rotation. Especially when the fourth or fifth spot is Hennessey or Correia, who have only proved they have more bad starts than good ones.

All of the above means to me, the key question the Giants have to face is how to strengthen the fourth starting position. Why Washburn? Because of all the free agents out there, he has a record of winning and going through the playoffs' pressure cooker. Add to that he is a veteran Left-hander (helps balance the rotation against good left handed hitting teams) and he can be count on as a good bet to eat up some innings (over 200 twice in his career, 177 last year.) All in all he fits what the Giants need more than other available free agents.

Now if we get to dream and can pick trades from other teams, I'd rather have Zito. Neither one is going to happen, but the Giants have got to place this a priority number one.

by Sayhey on Dec 14, 2005 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
"Teams win championships with the right combination of players, regardless of what their cost is,"

Then why do you want Tomko?

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
I said "I would've been happy, or at least kept my mouth shut, if they had signed Tomko" - that's hardly and endorsement of Tomko, only a statement they would've been in a much better position with Tomko than Hennessey or Correia. Who I said I wanted from the FA market is Washburn, or from a trade I'd pick Zito. Given the fact neither are very likely, we will have to settle for someone like Leiter if we are going to upgrade the position.

by Sayhey on Dec 14, 2005 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
I really think we'll be as good or better off with Hennessey as our fifth starter than we would be with Tomko... especially since we can take the three million we would be spending on him and put it toward another bat.  I dream of Nomar... I need to think of somebody else.
"Baseball is life, the rest is just details."

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 14, 2005 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
I was saying that with half tongue in cheek (but couldn't figure out how to convey that textually).  I agree, none of those options are very likely...

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I'd rather he figure out to get a real bat at a corner infield spot and better still, dump Alfonso somehow.

Fifth starter... I'm OK with Hennessey, Correia, or even Valdez duking it out.

by achiappanza on Dec 14, 2005 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
The way we obsess over Tomko on this site, you'd think there was some latent, deeper, conflicted feelings in play here. Please, lie down, tell me about your childhood.

by leftymalo on Dec 14, 2005 3:11 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
That's probably the most unfunny thing I've ever read from you, Lefty. The Giants have only a handful of pitchers in a given year, and one of them happens to be a point of conversation more than others. There's no subconscious stuff going on here.

Yes, my father was once arrested for hitting my mother with an easel after she agreed to pose in a nude magazine. That much is true, but it was just a coincidence. Just a big, big coincidence that hasn't really been resolved, and often leads to bedwetting.

Still, you're way off base here.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 14, 2005 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Close...
Notice the easel reference. We're talking about a union between an artiste and a bunny.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 15, 2005 11:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Wll that certainly
does open up a whole new direction for McCovey Chronicles t-shirt ideas

by FavoriteSpring on Dec 15, 2005 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I'm pretty sure it's because the guys don't want Mrs. Tomko to leave the state.

Just a guess.

by Skaldheim on Dec 14, 2005 4:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I'm confused.  Is Mrs. Tomko Grant's mom?  If so, that would explain quite a bit.
www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Dec 15, 2005 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
mueller to bums....we are stuck with el fatso for another year.

by bacci40 on Dec 14, 2005 5:37 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Corressey
Perhaps I'm missing it, but what, other than their cheap salaries, recommends either Hennessey or Correia for a place in the starting rotation? Neither has shown they can win more than they lose. Both like to let up large amount of HRs to opposing teams. Both have strikeout to walk ratios that are pedestrian at best. So for what reason can anybody be comfortable with either of these two guys in the rotation? I can't figure it out.

Of the two, Correia has a better arm and his ball moves much more than Hennessey's, but then so did VanLandingham's. When the pressure was on in September Correia fell apart. To his credit Hennessey pitched some good games mixed in with some terrible starts. So far, all I see is a future for Hennessey as a long reliever and a early retirement for Correia. I'd love to be proved wrong, but until I am, let's look for someone who has proved he can pitch in the majors.

by Sayhey on Dec 14, 2005 7:47 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Corressey
I, too, don't see much in the future for Correia. And I'm usually spot on in my predictions. I took my car in to get serviced yesterday, and Joe Nathan was the service advisor. Just like I predicted. Uh, yeah.

It's hard to get a read on Hennessey because of his injury troubles coming up through the minors. He is never going to average a strikeout per inning, but with his sinker he won't have to. He could be a good back end of the rotation guy at some point. Maybe now, maybe later.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 14, 2005 8:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Corressey
I don't recall Hennessey haven't any injury problems coming up, I just remember that he had that benign growth on his shoulder that had to be removed twice.  Are they what you are referring to or were there other injuries?

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Corressey
Perhaps my logic is wrong but Hennessey was outright dominant when he was on, terrible when he is off.  If we can get him to repeat the correct mechanics consistently, then we should have a very good pitcher.  But that's rub as always, Tomko's been trying for so many years and never been able to get that consistency going.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I would like Hennessey...
to at least occasionally strike someone out... no, Brad the pitcher does not count
Hours to Gross Anatomy final: 24

by kenshin1 on Dec 15, 2005 5:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I got Joe right, but then I liked JR Phillips too.

You might be right about Hennessey, but then the odds seem to me to favor more of the same. A few good starts sprinkled in among a lot of bad ones. This is a guy who could lead the league in gopher balls or in double plays depending on how well the sinker is working.

I'm normally all for giving rookies a chance to develop, but not this year with (a) one, Cain, already in the rotation; and (b) this being the last year (maybe next to last) we can count on much production from Barry. Given those two reasons, I'm not willing to take a chance on Hennessey or Correia.

Oh, and as much as I defend Pedro, I'd trade him in a minute for a quality starting pitcher.

by Sayhey on Dec 14, 2005 8:55 PM PST reply actions  

The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
For sheer entertainment value a rookie beats an equally bad free agent.   Plus whenever they get rocked you can hope they learned something and be better.  

From the numbers and other evidence it's safe to say that Hennessey is no worse than the other bad pitchers we can pick up.  

If he makes it out of the 1st innning he's usually pretty solid which sounds like he's just got nerves.  

And his name lends itself to headlines "GIANTS SIPPING HENNESSEY AFTER LAST NIGHT'S VICTORY"  Bringing in an aching and aged mercenary is just not as intrisically cool as giving a shot to a kid.  

by orangeandblackattack on Dec 14, 2005 11:29 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
While appreciating the joys of both struggling rookies and whiskey, I'm actually advocating something different. I want the Giants to acquire someone who can WIN.

by Sayhey on Dec 15, 2005 12:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
In regard to Hennessey's 1st inning troubles, I've got an idea. Let's have Benitez pitch the 1st, then Hennessey could pitch the final 8 innings.
www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Dec 15, 2005 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Five
I can't seem to shake the memeory of Correia walking what seemed like the entire Padres side in Barry's debut last year. Beyond his everyday suckiness, that got me good and scared about giving it over to the rookies.
Meantime, is there any way to look up Winter Ball stats? With the budget nudging up against $85 million, I'm getting delusional, hoping that Merkin is on the verge of becoming an ace and Linden has somehow flattened out his swing.

by SFfaninNYC on Dec 15, 2005 8:06 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
Hey can we just go back to last trade deadline and have Foppert back I'd love to have him this year considering he should be fully healthy right now after major surgery.  How can the Giants trade quality arms before they can heal fully from major elbow operations (Fopper, Joe Nathan) I think I'd be easier to find a center fielder over a good pitcher this off-season.  Since, however, Sabean has taken away my time machine.  I say lets really make a run at Garciaparra, trade Feliz with Hennesee/Correia, and a prospect for a decent starting pitcher from a team that needs youth and depth.  That leaves us with a better bat, and then Alfonzo as a decent back up, albeit expensive, and a starting pitcher (hopefully a legit number three).  That gives us an ok starting five and Cain can get his feet wet more comfortably in the five whole, and Hennessey is the insurance.
I wish my hometown newspaper could line up all the columns in a Giants box score.

by Bring Back the Thrill on Dec 15, 2005 4:41 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Five
Count me in for our own rookies over most has beens. Armas would be worth a flyer. And for those who miss Tomko, Kip Wells fits the profile of good stuff and painful lack of consistency. But really, anyone who walks a lot of batters should be stricken from the list. We can't afford to have Barry standing out there for long periods of time.

by NearestNorwich on Dec 15, 2005 5:48 PM PST reply actions  

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