Five
There is hardly anything more arbitrary than the one-through-five slotting of starting pitchers. Teams talk about getting "a fourth starter" or "a number two", when they should really just be concerned with getting a good pitcher. The Giants have something like three number twos, a five, and a six, but they're looking to bump the five to a four and bring in a number five to replace the six, hoping that one or two of the twos becomes a one. Unless, of course, the five can stay a five, and the team could somehow find a four to squeeze the six out, or all three twos become ones which leaves a whole lot of nothing from two to four, or all three twos pitch like threes and fours, which would be a nightmare.
The arbitrary designations didn't come out of thin air, and the above is much too flip. There are good reasons for the slotting, and it really doesn't have much to do with how a rotation is set up. If a team lets the press know they're looking for a number one starter, it can be safely assumed they're looking for one of the top 20 pitchers in the game. If the same team is looking for a number two starter, that implies certain qualities as well. They'd love a staff filled with five of the best pitchers in baseball, but that's not realistic. So a number two starter implies the next step down, the best pitcher available within a set of budget or trade limitations. The numeric designation for a starting pitcher is little more than a rough assessment of that pitcher's ability and expectations. In that sense, it is a very convenient shorthand method of describing a pitcher.
Different people will have different definitions for the rankings. One person's number two is another's third starter. Brett Tomko might be acceptable to some as the fourth best pitcher in a rotation, others would cringe if he were anything but a fifth starter. But almost all of us have unconsciously formed our own set of definitions. The Giants are looking for a starter to complete the rotation; not necessarily a fifth starter, but close enough.
The idea of what constitutes a final rotation piece is probably the one which is least agreed upon. If the bile in my stomach were a publicly traded company, all this talk about Shawn Estes would have sent its stock through the roof. So, without further ado, my qualifications for the last man in a rotation:
- A chance at mediocrity. Brett Tomko, for all of his perceived faults, has a nice chance every year to post an ERA right around the league average. A rookie pitcher who had some sort of success in the minors has an excellent chance to be shelled in a large portion of his outings. He also brings the possibility he will quickly adjust, and be a league-average pitcher right away. It might not be likely, but having a realistic chance is all this magical spot is about.
- A reason to have the teeniest of tiny hopes for more than mediocrity. A pitcher like Tomko would have the blazing fastball. A rookie might have great stuff, zero control, and the hope would relate to his command clicking into place. Pitchers like Al Leiter or Kevin Brown have a past history of dominance, and a current history of leaving the bathroom without burning a match. Maybe, just maybe, they can squeeze another good season out. The veterans are more for a team looking for a short-term fix, and the rookies are more about developing for the future, but both of the examples could conceivably help a contender immediately.
Not to dig up Seabiscuit and start pummeling him, but Shawn Estes doesn't pass that particular smell test. His erratic curveball is the only thing that even approaches average, and it's been five years since he's had a decent season. Not a good season, not a great season, but a decent season. His fastball is gone, his control might even be getting worse, and he probably hasn't put much practice time into sliding, either. Picking someone up to allow Brad Hennessey to develop in AAA or as a long reliever is a great idea. It provides the Giants with crucial depth, and I'm all for it. Just not Estes, please.
I'm sure Pedro Feliz would be able to bring back a decent candidate in a trade, should the Giants pick up Bill Mueller. There are still some candidates on the market, like Leiter or Tony Armas, Jr., as well. There are more candidates to bring in ahead of Hennessey, it seems like, than minor-league free agents to slot behind him. Giving Hennessey the job out of the box wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, either. The Giants rotation is mostly set, and arguing about the fifth starter is almost a luxury. I just hope that last spot is filled by someone worth watching, and someone with the potential to surprise.
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Re: Five
ABSOLUTELY FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!
by orangeandblackattack on Dec 14, 2005 11:09 AM PST reply actions
Re: Five
Re: Five
Funny stuff indeed.
Good points all around, I totally agree that we don't need more than mediocrity coming in - that's why I was against most of the available pitchers in our price range who's not represented by Borass and only Morris interested me.
I still cannot believe that Sabean was willing to stretch the budget for Loaiza but not Vlad or even Tejada... (then again if Magowan would have let out the purse string then...)
I think (hope!) Sabean is waiting for the Dec 20th non-tenders to see if there are any worth pursuing, then, if unsuccessful, pick off any stragglers in Jan/Feb for cheap competition against Hennessey.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 11:34 AM PST reply actions
Armas
Tomko
Re: Tomko
However, given the crazy market that's been boiling over with lots of $$$, I expect Tomko to sign with one of the losers in the Loaiza's sweepstakes (kind of double entredre funny because I think the winner of the sweepstakes is a loser as well...) and make more in one year than he made in two years with the Giants (around $3.75M if I remember right; that should be enough to keep his wife away from any reunion issues of her former employer, a well-known picture - though I only read it for the articles - magazine company run by an Octogenarian and his daughter).
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Five
-D
Re: Five
Re: Five
Other possible non-tenders (some more likely than others, some more hideous than others):
Joe Kennedy
Kip Wells
Josh Fogg
Kaz Ishii
Ramon Ortiz
Ryan Vogelsong
Ryan Franklin
Kyle Loshe
Gil Meche
Zack Day
Rob Bell
Mark Hendrickson
Mr. Acceptable
Kevin Brown
Tony Armas
Joe Kennedy
Kip Wells
Kyle Loshe
Gil Meche
Zack Day
by The Balls of Summer on Dec 14, 2005 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
Why Not Zito?
by rod beck on Dec 14, 2005 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Five
I would've been happy, or at least kept my mouth shut, if they had signed Tomko, but now we are reduced to the possibility of either going with the two-headed monster of Hennessey/Correia or sorting through the likes of Kaz Ishii and Shawn Estes. Both who I would reluctantly take over Corressey. It's looking to me like a trade to fill the position is a better bet. Other than the A's wanting to have Sandy Koufax to pry Zito loose (think Sandy would sign for trade purposes?), I don't know what's a realistic possibility out there. Time to wear out the phone lines, Brian.
So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
White Sox - El Duque, Contreras, the whole damn bullpen
Red Sox - Ortiz, Mueller, Bellhorn and Bronson Arroyo.
Marlins - Cabrera and Beckett played like the best players in the playoffs.
So even though the Giants aren't done this offseason I don't think they are going to make any major moves, but hopefully they take some chacnes on some guys who can help. Then if they are fortunate enough to be in the playoffs they can hope that Cain's talent is enought to dominate, or that an Armas or a Leiter can make a great start, or that Linden comes off the bench to hit two huge bombs off of Lidge/Rivera/F-Rod. That may seem unlikely but that's how teams win the title, not just by blowing money around everywhere.
Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
All of the above means to me, the key question the Giants have to face is how to strengthen the fourth starting position. Why Washburn? Because of all the free agents out there, he has a record of winning and going through the playoffs' pressure cooker. Add to that he is a veteran Left-hander (helps balance the rotation against good left handed hitting teams) and he can be count on as a good bet to eat up some innings (over 200 twice in his career, 177 last year.) All in all he fits what the Giants need more than other available free agents.
Now if we get to dream and can pick trades from other teams, I'd rather have Zito. Neither one is going to happen, but the Giants have got to place this a priority number one.
Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
Then why do you want Tomko?
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 14, 2005 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
Re: So you're saying Washburn = Championship?
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:52 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Five
Fifth starter... I'm OK with Hennessey, Correia, or even Valdez duking it out.
Re: Five
Re: Five
Yes, my father was once arrested for hitting my mother with an easel after she agreed to pose in a nude magazine. That much is true, but it was just a coincidence. Just a big, big coincidence that hasn't really been resolved, and often leads to bedwetting.
Still, you're way off base here.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 14, 2005 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
You're Kent and Anna's boy?
by FavoriteSpring on Dec 15, 2005 1:03 AM PST up reply actions
Close...
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 15, 2005 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
Wll that certainly
by FavoriteSpring on Dec 15, 2005 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Five
Just a guess.
Re: Five
Re: Corressey
Of the two, Correia has a better arm and his ball moves much more than Hennessey's, but then so did VanLandingham's. When the pressure was on in September Correia fell apart. To his credit Hennessey pitched some good games mixed in with some terrible starts. So far, all I see is a future for Hennessey as a long reliever and a early retirement for Correia. I'd love to be proved wrong, but until I am, let's look for someone who has proved he can pitch in the majors.
Re: Corressey
It's hard to get a read on Hennessey because of his injury troubles coming up through the minors. He is never going to average a strikeout per inning, but with his sinker he won't have to. He could be a good back end of the rotation guy at some point. Maybe now, maybe later.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 14, 2005 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Corressey
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Corressey
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Dec 14, 2005 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
I would like Hennessey...
Re: Five
You might be right about Hennessey, but then the odds seem to me to favor more of the same. A few good starts sprinkled in among a lot of bad ones. This is a guy who could lead the league in gopher balls or in double plays depending on how well the sinker is working.
I'm normally all for giving rookies a chance to develop, but not this year with (a) one, Cain, already in the rotation; and (b) this being the last year (maybe next to last) we can count on much production from Barry. Given those two reasons, I'm not willing to take a chance on Hennessey or Correia.
Oh, and as much as I defend Pedro, I'd trade him in a minute for a quality starting pitcher.
The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
From the numbers and other evidence it's safe to say that Hennessey is no worse than the other bad pitchers we can pick up.
If he makes it out of the 1st innning he's usually pretty solid which sounds like he's just got nerves.
And his name lends itself to headlines "GIANTS SIPPING HENNESSEY AFTER LAST NIGHT'S VICTORY" Bringing in an aching and aged mercenary is just not as intrisically cool as giving a shot to a kid.
by orangeandblackattack on Dec 14, 2005 11:29 PM PST reply actions
Re: The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
Re: The best lousy pitchers are rookies.
Re: Five
Meantime, is there any way to look up Winter Ball stats? With the budget nudging up against $85 million, I'm getting delusional, hoping that Merkin is on the verge of becoming an ace and Linden has somehow flattened out his swing.
Re: Five
by Bring Back the Thrill on Dec 15, 2005 4:41 PM PST reply actions

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